Article: 10704 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: rmartin@CC.UMANITOBA.CA Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: man, things have changed Date: 30 Aug 1994 02:08:22 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 31 Message-ID: <33tt9m$37@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408300008.29999.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 19:07:49 -0500 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC There was a time when I would look forward to reading my mail. There was a time when the futurec listserv was a considerably larger portion of my life. The ideas and comments brought up there were exactly that.... future. Now I find I am more of an outsider than before. Instead of reading about exciting new technologies that would influencehumankind, I here depressing news about how people can't cope with life. Instead of enjoying myself while reading about William Gibson, Bruce Sterling and dealing with such situations as Agrippa and the hunt for who actually wrote futurec posing as William Gibson, I am reading about suicidal philosophy. Once futurec was known for its innovation and fast-forward ideas. Now it seems people join so they can get psychiatric help. Its no better or worse. Just different and something which doesn't interest me *as much*, I guess. Is it just me? I am no intellect, thats for sure. I am no philosophy expert. I am just a guy who misses the old days, I guess. If someone could direct me to where the people who used to discuss such topics as brain-implants and such issues as how computers will influence the future, I will be on my way... Richard NOiSE Please, no flames. -- RICHARD MARTIN. . . . . .C.Y.B.E.R.A.D.D.I.C.T. NOISE. . . .. . . . . . .. . . . ..N...O...I...S...E... ............. . . . . . . . . . . ..................... . . . . industrial_Martin@UManitoba.CA. Article: 10705 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "J. Ted Liefeld" Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 30 Aug 1994 14:56:59 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 158 Message-ID: <33vaar$mi@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408301256.696.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 08:56:23 -0400 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408300008.UAA05775@turing.mathworks.com> (rmartin@CC.UMANITOBA.CA) >There was a time when I would look forward to reading my mail. There was a >time when the futurec listserv was a considerably larger portion of my >life. The ideas and comments brought up there were exactly that.... >future. Now I find I am more of an outsider than before. Instead of >reading about exciting new technologies that would influencehumankind, I >here depressing news about how people can't cope with life. Instead of >enjoying myself while reading about William Gibson, Bruce Sterling and >dealing with such situations as Agrippa and the hunt for who actually >wrote futurec posing as William Gibson, I am reading about >suicidal philosophy. Once futurec was known for its innovation and >fast-forward ideas. Now it seems people join so they can get psychiatric >help. Its no better or worse. Just different and something which doesn't >interest me *as much*, I guess. > >Is it just me? No, not just you. I've also noticed that there has been a distinctly depressing trend lately in the posts from futurec, not to mention that the volume has dropped off dramatically. Somebody has posted in the past about how futurec periodically re-invents itself. This time it seems to be moving more slowly than the last (I've lurked here quite a while now) So, to cheer everyone up, lets have some _positive_ looks on the future to mellow the negative. Personally, I am pretty positive right now. I just got my first puppy since leaving my parents place 9 years ago. His name is Elvis, and I would heartily reccomend watching a puppy at play as therapy for anything. > Instead of reading about exciting new technologies that would > influencehumankind Well, how about this one... : Well, I finally took a tour of the Magic Edge facility today, and it : looks fairly sweet.. its very professionally done, and fairly well : thought-out with a lot of training going on right now. The press : release I'm enclosing below will give a better idea of the type of : entertainment you're actually paying for if you go there. : : Another couple of bits of techno trivia, according to the marketing : person who gave me the tour: the capsule has been almost completely : redesigned since last year, so instead of the 45 degrees of roll and : pitch, it now gives 60 degrees of roll and pitch (no yaw). The capsule : also uses some "new cockpit of the future controls being considered by : the military" control sticks configured as a HOTAS config. The design : is highly reminiscent of the non-moving control sticks used on the : early prototype F-16's which caused some wrist injuries by not giving : tactile feedback to the users, who could not actuate any movement upon : the control input device itself. In particular, the controls are : -very- solid. The seats are Recaro sports seats, and the 3-d surround : sound is provided by 7 speakers. : : According to the person who gave me the tour, the facility in Japan : uses only two-person pods, versus our solo pods. Personally, I'm not : too sure about riding in back with a newbie at the helm! Supposedly, : each unit costs approx. $250,000, but I'm not sure if it includes the : Onyx... : : Here's the press release: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE For more information call: Leslie Lodestro: 415-254-5550 MAGIC EDGE LAUNCHES LOCATION BASED ENTERTAINMENT IN U.S. Mountain View, Calicornia, August 25, 1994 [ note: yes, that's what it says! ] -- Magic Edge, Inc. today unveiled a new location based entertainment venu that's going to rock the entertainment industry. The new 12,000 square foot facility located at 1625 Shoreline Blvd. in Mt. View incorporates a dazzling combination of special effects, thrills and cutting edge cuisine. The attraction was designed from the ground up by Magic Edge, Inc. and the project was funded by billion dollar game maker NAMCO. NAMCO owns the U.S. site along with an additional Magic Edge installation in Tokyo, Japan which opened July 16, 1994. "In researching some of the world's top entertainment venues and theme parks we have developed a format which camptures a spirit and excitement taht is really going to surprise and captivate people" enthuses Don morris, president and founder of Magic Edge. The Magic Edge experience begins the moment guests walk across the diamond plate steel floor to the check-in counter where they are issued their flight suits. An orientation delivered via laser disc in a highly themed briefing room is followed by a question and answer period with a Magic Edge squadron leader. Guests are fully briefed on the capabilities of the X-21 Hornet(tm), a 21st century super-cruise, multi-role strike fighter aircraft. As guests step throgh the steel girder and column portals to the hangar deck their senses are overwhelmed by a multitude of lighting and sound effects including 8,000 watts of 3-D Doppler effects. They actuall _feel_ the thunder of fighter jets passing overhead. Twelve full motion X-21 aircraft hover in the fog. Guests ascend the gleaming metal steps to their aircraft and strap into the fully equipped cockpit. Networked together and under the command of their squadron leader, they embark on an interactive sortie complete with barrel rolls, where they duke it out in the air with each other and explore hundreds of miles of beautiful landscape chock full of challenges. After the flight they debrief with their squadron leader who guides them through their triumphs and tragedies with an instant replay video. [ note: while you're playing, a video camera is watching you, and you could, potentially be one of the "pilots" displayed on the TV's in the entranceway and in the cafe, loooking stupid, or studly ] Their missions may be completed but their Magic Edge experience is not. Guests may refuel in the Officer's Club(tm), a high-tech futuristic restaurant and bar. They can trade tales of adventure over one of the many unique micro-brews offered or Splash Down(tm) with a personal wine tasting by the class. They will enjoy vicarious thrills as they watch the live action of current missions on giant color screens. The Officer's Club menu offers such culinary delights as Spicy Mandarin Duck Salad or Rosemary Cornish Game Hen. On the way out guests may browse through a complete line of custom merchandise in the Magic Edge Base Exchange(tm) store. Magic Edge has signed an exclusive merchandising agreement with Sony Signatures, a Division of Sony to develop a high-end line of goods under the Magic Edge label. The products include a stylish line of clothing adorned with the company's trademark logos, unique glassware products and collectors items. Many of the products have been further designed to compliment the current aviation theme planned for the first Magic Edge Centers. The opening of Magic Edge marks huge technological advancements for the entertainment industry. Taking virtual reality to the next level, Magic Edge is making use of the Silicon Graphics Onyx RealityEngine(tm). A four processor rack with multi-channel option boards network 18 different capsules, allowing six capsules at a time to interact with one another. The Onyx machine also delivers the ultra-realistic graphical images the players interact with inside the cockpit. Paradigm Simulation Inc., a leading developer of real-time tools and gaming software, developed the game for Magic Edge. The game is based upon Paradigm's Vega(tm) product and is a major breakthrough in networked gaming, guaranteed to challenge the most discriminating video addicts. These landmark technologies, the immersive, full-motion flight simulator together withthe detailed theming and special effects of the environment promise to set the standard for out-of-home entertainment in the Bay Area and beyond. Founded in May of 1990 Magic Edge is privately held company with headquarters in Mt. View, California. For more information about Magic Edge please call 415-254-5500. ### wearing: Black jeans, barefoot, an old blue plaid shirt I bought in 1985 listening to: NPR, smashing pumpkins scratching: The puppy Elvis under his collar motto: "Elvis Lives!" Article: 10706 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "Gregory H. Ritter" Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 30 Aug 1994 16:21:39 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 65 Message-ID: <33vf9j$8bi@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408301421.8530.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 10:18:55 EDT Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: ; from "rmartin@cc.umanitoba.ca" at Aug 29, 94 7:07 pm Richard Martin said: > > There was a time when I would look forward to reading my mail. There was a > time when the futurec listserv was a considerably larger portion of my > life. The ideas and comments brought up there were exactly that.... > future. Now I find I am more of an outsider than before. [*snip*] > Its no better or worse. Just different and something which doesn't > interest me *as much*, I guess. [*snip*] > I am no intellect, thats for sure. I am no philosophy expert. I am just a > guy who misses the old days, I guess. If someone could direct me to where > the people who used to discuss such topics as brain-implants and such > issues as how computers will influence the future, I will be on my way... > > Richard > NOiSE > > Please, no flames. Blah, blah, blah. If you don't want flames, don't whine. I get really tired of people complaining that FutureCulture isn't what it used to be. Who promised you a static rose garden? If you don't like the topics that are discussed here, START A TOPIC THAT YOU WANT TO DISCUSS. START IT AND DON'T LET IT DIE. This list isn't a machine, you know. It's not some automated program that accesses specific information regarding new technologies and William Gibson. It's a dynamic conglomeration of people with competing ideas and viewpoints. Or competing memes, you might say. Apparently the new-technology memes have lost their hold on this list, being replaced by, I think, a lot more political memes. Why? I think maybe the tech-memes played themselves out; they've stopped evolving. I mean, how many times can the possibility of biosoft chips (or hypertext or brain- implants or whatever) be discussed by the same group of people? But that doesn't mean those memes are extinct, just that, for whatever reason, they are no longer the "fittest" (in other words, they don't "infect" people's minds or capture attention like they used to). Therefore they have not "survived" in the "evolutionary struggle of ideas" on the FC list. So what do you do? Make them "fittest" again. How? Come at them from a new angle, present them in a new way, apply them to new situations, etc. *EVOLVE THOSE IDEAS!* And if you're not going to take the responsibility for propagating and evolving the memes that you value, then, for god's sake, stop moaning about their death. Greg Ritter eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu Article: 10708 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: CtG Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: man, things have changed Date: 30 Aug 1994 19:07:31 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 25 Message-ID: <33vp0j$h2v@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408301707.17488.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 12:27:14 EST Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408300008.AA17416@csn.org> Regarding: man, things have changed > There was a time when I would look forward to reading my mail. There was a > time when the futurec listserv was a considerably larger portion of my > life. The ideas and comments brought up there were exactly that.... [stuff deleted] > Is it just me? No. Hey, you FCers with diskspace/archives. Post the bubblefaq. I reread it last night (ancient, yellowing printout), and I think it pretty much sums up the purpose of FC. We aren't watching the bubbles anymore, or so it seems to at least a few of us. I know that every fall, FC gets this way, dead and/or tired. But is it usually this bad? There still has to be an edge out there somewhere, so lets go find it/make it. I'll look for the bubble manifesto on disk somewhere, but if you can beat me to it, please... wearing: jeans, white shirt. ready for lunch. --- Chris Article: 10709 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: John Frost Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 30 Aug 1994 20:02:15 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 600 Message-ID: <33vs77$jk6@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408301801.20091.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 11:00:58 -0700 Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408301753.KAA28764@netcom15.netcom.com> On Tue, 30 Aug 1994, CtG wrote: > I'll look for the bubble manifesto on disk somewhere, but if you can beat me > to it, please... > Funny everytime FC gets down. this get's posted... somebody care to explain that... well here it is.. ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| From: ahawks (albert hofmann) Subject: Re: evolution^2 [The FutureCulture Maniphesto resent] Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 15:48:41 MST MANIPHEST DESTIN-E: WHAT *IS* FUTURECULTURE? A Manifesto on the Here-and-Now Technocultural [R]evolution by Andy Hawks ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com and the entire FutureCulture e-community circa early 1993 FutureCulture E-List Requests & Info future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu <'send info'> You are five years old. You are lieing on a grassy hill, blowing bubbles up into a clear field of blue sky. Bubbles. Right now, as a five year old child, you look at the bubbles, and words pop into your head: "pretty", "oooooo", "float". To you, the bubbles are almost like people -- at least somewhat analogous to Bugs Bunny or a Smurf. Your wide eyes follow the bubbles as they traipse along the gentle prevailing curves of soft winds, turning, rotating, revolving endlessly in the air. A sunray beams its light through one particular bubble you have been admiring, and within its midst your eyes become privy to a new world -- a heretofor unknown domain of chaotic rainbows swirling about along the bubble. The colors, like a sentient anthill, work at once individually and synergetically to give the bubble it's unique flavor, an individual identity among the community of bubbles. As you lay your eyes on the continually morphing rainbows in the bubble, admiring how this internal shapeshifting never ceases as long as the bubble is "alive", the wind brings forth from nearby another bubble. Now you are focused on two bubbles circling each other ever closer, probably communicating in some fashion on some sort of subatomic level. Now that your eyes know to look for the chaotic rainbows, you enthusiastically discover them in this second bubble as well. The rainbows exist in both bubbles, with only a thinly veiled invisible wall of air seperating the two. The rainbows do not stop in admiration or wonder to ponder the existence of another bubble, they continue on with their duties in the wake of the orbic maelstrom that is the individual bubble. And suddenly, in the mesh of an event that seems at once both predetermined and free, the bubles combine and join forces as one. If the sun catches the bubble-morph at the right angle you can still see a wall, where airspace once existed, within the bubble. All the while, the chaotic rainbows have continued of course, and now willingly flow back and forth between what was once two seperate entities. The shape of the bubble-morph is still oddly circular as a whole, with the original shape of the individual bubble-orbs stil clearly visible. The bubble-morph is stil at home among the individual bubbles and still haphazardly surfs the winds as if nothing had happened. Low and behold, a third bubble approaches its vicinity. Same chaotic rainbows, seemingly no different from any other bubble in the group. *POP!* Quickly this third bubble seemingly self-destructs without any reason, sending a fury of bubble residue out into the wind. Some of it lands on a tree, some on the grass, and yet more lands on the bubble-morph. As the bubble morph continues to rotate, revolve, spin endlessly, the residue makes it's way to the translucent crease marking the marriage of two individual bubbles. And, then, it is gone. Absorbed into the structure of he bubble morph, evolving into yet more particles of chaos rainbows. More bubbles float by the bubbly-morph. Some stumble in it's wake and escape it's grasp, some pop, some are attracted to it and become yet another aspect of the holistic bubble-creature, still other bubbles diverge into a completely different spacial area. If you watch long enough, you might even see one portion of the bubble-morph leave, mutating back into it's original state as an individual bubble. All the while, bubbles are combining into new bubbles, bubbles are popping, bubbles are floating, rotating, revolving, spinning, shapeshifting. Affecting and being affected by each other and other entities such as the wind, a sharp blade of grass, a flower pedal. The chaos rainbows never cease, the bubbles will always exist as long as you, as the bubble-maker, decide to keep blowing bubbles. You are now, let's say, 40 years old. You are sitting on the same hill with your five year old child, urging him to discover the wonders of the bubble world. Your eyes are not as wide anymore, at least not as wide as your child's. But do you still find delight and joy in the wonders of bubbles? There is beauty in the bubble world, even though you may approach it now from the perspective of an accomplished chemist, or physicst, or artist, or engineer, or cyberneticist, or 7-11 night manager. Hopefully, you have not closed your eyes to the magic your child sees, the magic you once saw. It should be obvious, by now, that bubbles are a metaphor. What do you think the metaphor is? I would be interested o hear what peole have to say in this regards. But, since this text is to be confined to the context of futureculture, the bubbles are meant to represent subcultures. The caotic rainbows represent the people, the material articles, the ideas, the *memes* that define those subcultures. Thus, you can see, subcultures combine into cultures or bigger subcultures (it's all relative), subcultures may self-destruct, they may evolve or morph, they may diverge in a seperate direction. But watever the case, there's still bubbles because we, as a global village, are like the five year old -- entrenched in the world of bubbles, looking on with wide-eyes. Probably the most important ideas I have related so far are that: 1) the process is continuous with an infinite amount of ebb and flow among and between and through subcultures with an infinite amount of possible outcomes, and 2) when subcultures combine they do not lose their original individual identity, and may in fact leave, though a synergetic effect exists which is *unrelated* to the amount of individual bubbles combined to produce the bubble-morph. The bubble-morph being, obviously, the combination in some fashion or another of seperately defined subcultures. It is also interesting to note that, ultimately, bubbles are "of the same stuff" which can be paralled to individuals in groups on a vast variety of levels. Let us now turn to subcultures, let us see what bubbles we have blown that provide the basic constructs of what we might deem, for a lack of a better word, FutureCulture. When I use the word "FutureCulture" I am referring to the FutureCulture E-List. When I use "futureculture" I am referring to the culture of the future. But it's not really the future, it's here-and-now, and it's in this writing. There are some other words with similar connotations, but yet the distinctions need to be mentioned, and then applied to everyday life. The first word is "technoculture". Like a technocracy is a government run by scientists or those who create technology, a technoculture is a culture that is fueled by technology. America is a technoculture. We would be lost without our televisions, our cars, our computers, our telephones. Futureculture, then, is a way of deciphering what tomorrow will look like in a technoculture. Another label to mention is "new edge". This is a trendy, shortsighted term that has little relevance to the perpetual realities of technoculture and futureculture. New Edge is a here-and-now-gone-tomorrow ideal. Fairly soon, it won't be "new" and increasingly so it is definitely not "edge". The other misnomre to mention is "cyberculture". Cyberculture is probably most closely associated with the idea of futureculture, yet cyberculture is often mis- and over-used. If you look at the meaning of the word "cyber", basically "information" in an oversimplified context, it has little to do with frequently-used notions of cyberculture, specifically a Gibson-esque cyberpunk world as it exists today or in the near-future. These are my own personal reflections on the world of bubbles, and these labels and subcultural labels I am using are better thought of as what I see as the most outstanding reference points to use in the context of getting The Basic Idea (tm) across. Relative labels and reference points, no dictatorial lines being drawn here. Each mention of a subculture will be followed by a basic reasoning by a defense in applying the group to the idea of futureculture. The idea of futureculture evolves *from* the relationship between different bubbles and buble-morphs. These core bubbles and bubble-morphs produce noticeable ideas, trends, and material objects for example, which are deemed by some relatively large bubble-blower (ie society) to reflect the evolution of society and world culture. Simply put, FutureCulture represents an internal and external effort, both passive and interactive, observational and participatory, to: discover these trends/ideas/objects or at least bring acknowledgement of their existence to a larger segment of the global populous, provide an interactive forum for the global populous to discuss such matters and to reflect and refract varying cultures and subcultures, to then apply this discussion to existing cultures and subculture to plant the seeds spawning further trends/ideas/objects. Thus one can begin to see the infinitely cyclic nature of the process. It is a process which you are at varying levels of consciousness engaged in every moment you are alive, by everything you say or do, and every sensory input. By providing the on-line interactive forum of the FutureCulture e-list, we as individuals and members of varying subcultures and cultures can merge the unconscious acts of participation in culture with a conscious understanding, to create/construct/deconstruct/destroy and evolve reality and people's lives on an individual and group basis. Basically, we are analyzing existing culture, we are creating tomorrow's reality, and we are doing it on a here-and-now, globally interactive, seemingly real-time forum. Thus I submit the reference points, the subcultures, the basic bubbles that are essential to futureculture: Virtual Culture - This is probably the easiest to "define". We can --------------- all say with assurance, that to some degree, in any basic sense of the word, we are all participants and members of Virutal Culture. The essence of Virtual Culture lies in the notion of cyberspace. In this context I might define cyberspace as that frontier defined by electronic communications towhich georaphy has little or no relevance to being a member of the group. If you regularly use a phone, modem, fax, or networked computer terminal, videophone, or interactive video, consider yourself part of virtual culture. Technology is a key aspect of tomorrow's reality. Technology seemingly provides the basis of all constructs we produce. Virtual culture, then, is a giant leap forward for humankind in terms of the way we approach ourselves as individuals, and the nature of how we approach individuals in groups. Basic sociological structures will eventually be realigned to conform to this key evolutionary step as technology continues to increase exponentially, thus forever expanding the limits of virtual culture and therefore potential of all cultures. Non-communicative technological forces will be mentioned briefly throughout this writing, but the most interesting applications of technology increasingly revolve around aspects of communication. Psychedelic Culture - Arguably begun in the 60's, this subculture ------------------- revolves around the use and effects of psycho-active drugs, particularly psychedelics like LSD, to mainfest new ideas, new ways of thinking, new ways of approaching reality and consciousness. One of the mysteries of modern day society is the nature of the mind and consciousness. Psychedelic culture is vital in exploring these areas. These areas in turn are vital to our understanding of who and what we are as humans and the basic philosophical questions homan have asked for centuries. Recently, psychedelic culture has bubble-morphed with virtual culture as seen in the potential exploration of the technoligcal advancements of virtual reality as a means of "opening the doors of perception". Here-and-now extrapolations are evident in the use of "mind machines" as well as the resurgance of 60's guru Timothy Leary as a spokesperson for virtual reality. And need we mention the unbelievable explosive return of LSD acros the US and other parts of the world. Rave Culture - If you don't know what raves are, I will attempt to ------------ explain it, though with a parallel that will disturb many ravers (myself included in the group of ravers disturbed by the anology). Aforementioned psychedelic culture reached a "peak" with the community of Woodstock. Think of rave culture as woodstock in the 90's, though wih obvious notable advancements and progressions: smaller and more specific communities allow for more woodstock-esque events to occur more often and produce a higher deree of community, the music reflects technology -- techno music is the mainstay - music that may often range between 0 and 160bpm that is almost entirely created on computers and modern audio technology and is an evolutionary mutation of disco music generally, and finally, raves are often times associated with psychedelic culture in a general desire to create one's own reality or be part of some sort of *gestalt-consciencous* event. And, most importantly, the idea of raves is to have fun!!! We most not overlook outlets of communal entertainment in futureculture. At raves, the vibe is generally happy and easy to catch, the people generally fun, the music is cutting edge, and, if you want, you can further entertain yourself with nootropic or other psycho-active substances. Basically, raves are the entertainment aspect of the evolving futureculture as it stands now. Undoubtedly raves will eventually morph into something else, as this particular side of culture rises and falls quickly in proportion with people's day to day lives. Raves, as mentioned before, are deeply intertwined with technology as well as some aspects of psychedelic culture, thus their inclusion in futureculture. Cyberculture - This is a difficult culture to explain as it is still ------------ in its infancy, thus it is still comprised of aspects of the varying other subcultures. I will do my best to set it apart from other subcultures. Cyberculture is a here-and-now reality that grew out of the science fiction movement of "cyberpunk". Look at the word "cyberpunk" -- broken down you have "cyber" and "punk" which roughly translates to people using technology and information in ways that deviate from the expected norms and mores and laws of society. Hackers are part of cyberculture. I will draw more criticism by defining a hacker as a "cyberpunk" -- as previously stated, one who uses information and technology in ways that go against the grain of norm society. Let me put to rest an ageold debate that persists among aspiring futureculturists, he said while slowly walking backwards to the bomb shelter. Hackers originated in the 60s, and basically did they same things hackers do now, unly possibly with less of a violent nature attached. Somewhere along the line, those hackers gave up their antiauthoritarian ideals and merged into mainstream society, though they still wanted to be called "hackers" because they can program a computer in nifty ways. Modern-day hackers came along, the WarGames generation, and the connection between illegality (antiauthoritarianism rather) and hackers resurfaced. Old hackers got pissed, and have done their best to dissociate themselves from the genreally-accepted term of modern day hacking. This is most clearly seen in their attempt to seperate "hackers" from "crackers" which I won't go into because old hackers don't realise that cracking is still hacking in the original true sense -- it does take skill and requires privied information. Hackers nowadays, post-Wargames hackers at least, have as their motto "information wants to be free" and thus that is their goal in hacking or, more appropriately, being a cyberpunk. Cyberculture, at its roots, appropriates (samples) heavily from other subcultures. This could be easily guessed because of the inclusion of the prefix "cyber", referring to information. In this context I would like to see usage of the term cyberculture return back to its roots -- the idea of an information culture. That is, a culture where information is an important commodity, if not the most vital commodity. Information is an important commodity in modern global culture, as witnessed by the power and popularity and prominence of CNN and Mtv in our society. When people talk about an information society, they are actually talking about cyberculture, and they are actually talking about a soon-to-be historical shift in society that is currently in it's infancy. Contributions to this shift will be seen in the wake of the ISDN (Integrated Services Digital Network) and other such technologies as they become more readily available and approachable to the mainstream. We might say then, that cyberpunks (hackers, not just computer hackers either) provide the deviant portion of an existing cyberculture. Cyberculture should *NOT* be confused with technoculture, new edge, or futureculture, all of which will be put in the proper context later. As I have said, cyberculture is in its infancy. We really *don't* live in an information society, because economics, not infomics or infonomics if you will, is the underlying thread that holds our society together. However, this may be beginning to change, as witness in our reliance on economic credit systems (your credit is just information, which can be hacked) as well as on a political scale the intertwining of political, media, and international-conglomerate businesses as the definite powerhouses. At the turn of the century, it was basically just political forces. Post-WW-II, as postindustrial society developed, it became politics + business which continues to this day, but now media (information power) is a substantial force in the global power game. Rudy Rucker, prominent writer and scientist, is credited with the outstanding motto of cyberculture as a whole -- "How fast are you? How dense?" The phrase should be examined in the context of information processing, individuals dealing wth a world that is transforming and morphing from economics-based to infonomics-based. Industrial Culture - This is a misnomre, actually, since we ------------------ realistically live in a postindustrial society. At any rate, industrial culture is most noted for a musical movement. Industrial music is highly technological, though it has a definite rebellious spirit that can easily be likened o the punk movement of the late 70's. Thus, industrial musicians could easily be considered cyberpunks, and sometimes are. Industrial culture also consists of other types of performance art other than music. One notable inclusion is Survival Research Laboratories, which builds robots, and usually does strange things with them like putting it inside a rabbit carcus and having the rabbit carcuss walk around and fall into an acid bath. Again, very cyberpunk. These postmodern industrialists are easily seen as a byproduct of postindustrial ziabatsus arising out of the sleek, slick, greed-filled 80s and their never-ceasing propagation, as seen in the motivations of an indivudal like Michael Milken or a zaibatsu like Sony. Again, technology is prominent in this subculture and by now you are probably beginning to see the extent of the overlap that occurs among these subcultures. The further you go, the more indescribable as individual entities they become, thus the need for a meta-subculture or meta-culture that encompasses the important attributes. From here on out, then, the focus will shift to smaller or more humanities-oriented topics. PostModernism - Postmodern art and philosophy arises out of the ------------- here-and-now state of our world as it has evolved and changed, using WW-II as a reference point to seperate modernism and postmodernism. In the postmodern world, technology is prominent (tv, radio, computer). Information is important (se cybcerculture). Ideas are easily constructed and deconstructed. Communication is more readily accessible and is an artform in itself, witness the popularity of appropriation (sampling) as seen in industrial and hip-hop culture as well as the works of writer Kathy Acker. Politically, postmodernism acceps the reality of a postindustrial world moving towards an information-based world. Postmodernism is a tricky subject, and a parallel between mentioning postmodernism can be drawn to the use of the word "shaman" in psychedelic culture - overused, often misinformed, often appropriated without true understanding. Postmodernism has been around for some time now and stands on its own, thus it is difficult to incorporate it in this context. We must at least, however, acknowledge the fact that the threads of postmodernism reality provide the basis for the evolving futureculture, technoculture, and cyberculture. Street Culture - Primarily Afro-Centric because of the racism and -------------- general inequality that exists in America (specifically), the motto of street culture is given to us by William Gibson: "the street finds uses for itself". Thus, Street Culture can often be considered D.I.Y. (Do It Yourself) culture. Hip-Hop (Rap) music is a prime example of this. Kids create singles in their basement (which is also the case with rave music and industrial music) and then market it themselves, or, better yet, market *themselves*. Street fashion is equally D.I.Y. -- small, sometimes local labels that use postmodernism elements like appropriation, also a key elemnt in street music. For example, as I write this I am wearing a shirt by a group called 26 Red. On the back, the shirt has a picture of Charlie Tuna with the words "Human Safe". This is copywright infringement, but it is also appropriation and a realization of the realities of pop culture and not being afraid to apply them. Graffiti is street culture art, as well. Street Culture is a product of a key shift in our postmodern world, which could best be stated as a movement towards individualization and specialization, hence the importance of D.I.Y. aspects in futureculture. You can't wait for someone to produce something to appease you, appease yourself instead. Create your own art, your own clothes, your own music, your own reality, your own manifesto, whatever.....Action is a *vital* element in all of this. Fringe Science - The idea of hyperreality is very important in this -------------- conglomeration of cultures. Hyperreality might best be explained by looking at the realities of the world that brought Rudy Rucker to make the aforementioned statement "how fast are you? how dense?" Our world is now moving very fast, and is very dense. There is so much out there, that people have come up with new ways of looking at Why Things Are (tm) -- new explanations for new realities. Cellular automata, chaos theory, singularity, maybe even quantum theory. Time, space, dimensions, reality, consciousness, life, cybernetics, intellignece, artificial life, subatomic realities, genetic mutations -- these are a few of the fringe scientist's avorite things. A lot of Fringe Science is an outgrowth of people involved to some degree with psychedelic culture. That aspect, combined with the fact that fringe science is "fringe" makes it less valid to some minds. However, these scientists are the post-Einstiens and should be loked at in that perspective. Technology is readily being accepted as a foundation of humankind, and that belief continues to gain prominence in a world technology increases exponentially. Witness the idea of an information society -- that could not occur in a world where technology and the desire to Make Something New (tm) plays second fiddle. Technology in our world is rapidly surging us upward, to a point where we are not even knowing What's Going On (tm). Witness the out-and-out FEAR of people accepting the TRUTH that is outlined in this writing, witness the fear of computers, the fear of hackers, the fear of evolution, the fear of genetic engineering... Those of us who are out there now LIVING this reality that's supposed to be for the *future* have one thing in common - a DESIRE to explore the unknown, to alter our realities, to alter ourselves and our lives, and to alter our real lives ourselves. Simply said, we are morphing. Constantly. On an individual, cultural, and global societal level. Constantly. On a multitude of levels. Constantly. We live in a world full of infinite potential. Reality is what we make it. This may sound like I'm speaking a small fringe special interest grop, but that is not the case. I am speaking to every living individual human being, especially those privelaged enough to live in a postmodern postindustrial world filled with art and technology, money and information, pop culture and subcultures. The future is now. That phrase is overused a lot, but in this context I mean that our visions of the future, what we have written about, fantasized about, our hopes and dreams of what will be -- the seed of those realities exists NOW. In the linear flow of history, we found ourselves at an important nexus in which linear seems much too confining when we live in a technoculture that seems poised to greet an exponential model of time with open arms. Here-and-now and tomorrow we are creating New forums of communication, New philosophical schools, New art, New politics, New technologies, New realities. In comprehending and dealing with these New realities, it is important that we reshape our mindstyles NOW to adjust to constant an consistent fast and dense change. It is no longer enough to say "change is the only constant". We must try and keep as open a mind as possible: keep all doors of perception open, prejudices of *any* sort will not meld (and I don't mean prejudices only in the physical sense, of course -- I mean in the mindstyle sense, the "faith" sense, the action sense, etc.). An open mind, open to all ideas, all experiences, all people, all communications, allows for a completely new transreal way of looking at ourselves, our world, our realities. In that transreal mindstyle we should constantly look and redefine ourselves and our world if it is necessary. For example, we, as a technoculture, need to transcribe *everything* we can via some means, whether it be via computer netowkr, video or audio tape, pencil, etc. Everything from the most individual moments to the most important global occurances. It's not enough that we have I-Witness videos and America's Funniest People and then CNN. Everything that's important and meaningful to you and your life, record it in some fashion or another. This recording allows you not only to better future generations by way of sharing the past, but it allows you the potential of looking at yourself in different lights, different angles (both literally and figuratively depending on the means of recording). We should continue to develop the means and resources to further the specialization and individualization of interactive technologies and interactive communication forums. Basically, this is just the idea that the more say each individual has in their reality, the better. It ultimately promotes democracy and stronger communities. For example, presidential candidate Ross Perot mentioned "Electronic Town Halls", the Internet is a prime example of specialization and individualization and interactivity, and more specialized newspapers and magazines, etc., are also a good idea. Relative to a previously mentioned idea, we need to be more open to change on every level, not only within our own personal lives, but in small groups, subcultures, and societies. We need to be able to deal with the exponential growth of communications in the world, and to do that we are being forced to change a lot of deeply-set ideals about the nature of communities, organizations, etc. For example, dealing with this change might include saying "Hey, we live in a system of representative government created 300 years ago when travel was difficult and communication very slow. Fairly soon we'll live in a world where everyone has some means of interactive electronic communication in their home, whether it be telephone or interactive-television or computer-network. On the basis of travel and communication, therefor, is representative government still a necessity?". On a more realisitc level, we must own up to the fact that in a constantly changing envionment, tradition for the sake of tradiition is futile and luaghable. If the tradition does not serve well the current environment and has no purpose, it should quickly be thrown out and changed. This idea operates on every level, from dealing wih the national deficit, to how you arrange your desk at work, to the nature of power structures that govern the masses. These are not radical ideas, they are just an acknowledgment of necessary changes in how we live our day to day lives, how we operate on every level, from the individual all the way to the individual planet. -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu Article: 10710 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!nac.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Shannon John Clark Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 30 Aug 1994 21:04:10 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 12 Message-ID: <33vvra$l78@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408301904.21733.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 14:00:25 CDT To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 30 Aug 1994 10:18:55 EDT But one of the most important things about the old list (and trust me I have been around longer than most people, heck I remember FC) was that it was a for um where you could expect great amounts of USEFUL interesting information and very solid intelligent writing. The bubble manifesto still stnads as one of the best pieces of writing I have ever recieved over the net period. The current list is so bogged down in conspiracy theories and pschological rants that I quite literally ignore and delete most that comes through my mailbox. It is rare that I recieve the notices about interesting art exhibits or innovative net projects that used to be such a crucial and vital portion of this list. just my two cents, Shannon Clark Article: 10711 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Evan Kirchhoff Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 31 Aug 1994 00:50:16 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 47 Message-ID: <340d38$olc@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408302250.25253.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 16:01:05 -0500 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <9408301749.AA18599@canopus.CC.UManitoba.CA> from "CtG" at Aug 30, 94 12:27:14 pm (sorry about the linelengths, I forgot this was an xterm) CtG says: > There still has to be an edge out there somewhere, so lets > go find it/make it. I think that's just it. The old "new edge" that used to define lots of old-FC is finally good and dead, and no new-new-edge is obvious. This explains why every periodic cycle of renewal has been followed by a deeper plunge. Look at all the things that have become boring and passe since the glory days of FC: - The Internet, first and foremost. In and of itself, it no longer has any coolness whatsoever, no sense of something new and revolutionary going on. There remains the possibility of new and revolutionary things _on_ the Internet, but the Internet itself has become about as exciting as the telephone system for most computer users. - Cyberpunk: dead, dead, dead. Yes, it's permanently altered our aesthetics, in fiction and in life, and its remnants are not about to disappear, but it's also no longer interesting for its own sake. Sure, Gibson's still doing a version of his good old thing, but he's pushing up the satire level now. - the Mondo2000 lifestyle: - Virtual reality! (Boring, primitive, vastly oversold, pre-empted by DOOM) - Smart drugs! (Wake me when they work) - Body Piercing! (Fine, but how much can you say about it?) - Futuristic Cyber-Implants! (Wake me when they happen) - Hacking (illegal)! (Anyone actually still doing this?) - Hacking (on your machine)! (Swept away by the pop-computing revolution) - Reading Mondo2000 (Irrelevant; without a new-new-edge, M2K cannot escape becoming WIRED with fashion pages) So what's left? What _is_ the new-new-edge? (And can someone give it a better name?) What's new and interesting in the world, to replace all of the above? -- Evan Kirchhoff, kirchh@ccu.umanitoba.ca Article: 10713 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Alan Sondheim Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 31 Aug 1994 07:18:40 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3413rg$2u8@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408310518.3013.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 00:35:11 -0400 Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408302302.AA00691@panix.com> What's new in the world? A lot of things: Viral technologies, nanotechnologies, body invasions. The breakdown of the classical nation-state. Not neural implants, but the neural networking of intelligence itself. More and more confusion about computer AL. World-wide gangsterisms. What's old is to keep looking for what's new - Mine the depths! I still don't find any decent accounts (and I've read most of them) for example about what all this communication _means_ to people, beyond the usual hackneyed stuff about pedophiles; about male chauvenisms; about business; about hackers; - & someone complained about all the psychological posts - but a lot of what's occurring now _is_ on the level of psychology - from artificial life forms and their behaviors to our own behavior here in this space and what we take with us when the computer's turned off. And the latter, turn-off or now, _is_ the future - we're moving out of our brains into our minds.... Alan Article: 10714 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "D.L. Richardson" <002134r@DRAGON.ACADIAU.CA> Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 07:21:36 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 94 Message-ID: <341410$2vp@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408310521.3062.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 02:20:58 -0300 Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC It's a scarey place. Unknown, unwritten, untested, untried. A place where many of us will go, still leaving others behind. It's a space where nothing is certain, and only guesses, blind luck, and intuition can guide us. It is the place that holds all hope and all fears. Balanced precariously between a dream and despair. I have just read a pile of futurec posts about how dull the list has become, how it used to be better in the "old days," how the past was exciting and new and fresh, where pondering the future and discovering the threads that will lead us there was a source of joy and satisfaction for the creators/writers/publishers of this list. Oh despair, such a drudge the future has become, how boring, how sad. Ah...yes. "It sure ain't how it used to be." My grandfather used to tell me stories of the war, of the depression, of the past. Yes, in his glory days, oh...things were different. He was young, virile, agile, quick of mind and body, a real 'ladies man'. When I finally got to know my grandfather, he was old, listening to radio stations that played his old favourite songs, reliving his bright youth through tales told to his grandchildren. Ah...they sure don't do this how they used to. They sure don't do that like they used to. Bring up the scrapbook, Nellie, I want the kids to see how glorious it all was. Balanced precariously between a dream and despair, my grandfather fell into despair, but pretended it was a dream. Denial is the first sign of a problem. He couldn't admit he was old. He couldn't cope with the fact that things were changing. My point? Don't fall into despair because the dream doesn't roll in ecstasy at your feet. I wasn't a member of the futurec list in the proverbial "good old days," so I don't know what they were like. I feel like I'm that grandchild again, listening to the reminiscing of my elders. Oh, woe. The future is still out there, friends. Just waiting to be discovered, it shows itself in the smallest of ways in the present, growing out of the seeds of the past and of the present. I guess I just get frustrated when I see people say that the 'Net has become no more than just another phone system, or that the thrill is gone now that it is no longer "undiscovered country." I am doing my thesis about the 'Net, about the sociological consequences it will have in the future, about FreeNets and public access, about the laws that will govern cyberspace and the policies that various governments are desperately trying to adopt before governments render themselves obsolete. To me the 'Net is a fascinating, frightening, exciting thing. It is only just beginning. The 'Net, CMC, and digital telecom are going to so influence global society and culture that we cannot even begin to imagine the consequences. When Gutenberg invented his printing press, he changed world history. Knowledge could be stored, transmitted, passed on. The 'Net, however, is a creature far more pervasive, farther reaching, instantaneous, huge. Never before in the history of humankind have we encountered a medium of this nature, of such massive potential for both the good and bad of those who use it. Orson Scott Card wrote of a future where every person in the world had a laptop, an account, and the ability to quickly and easily communicate with any other human being in the world. That's what's happening out there...it's not "just another phone system," it's a medium that will make each user his/her own writer, publisher, editor, distributor. It is putting the power of the mass media in the hands of the masses. It is going to change the world in ways that will change the history of humankind far more powerfully than Gutenberg's press. The 'Net we know now is only the seed of the 'Net that will be created over the next 20, 50, 100 years. This is just the beginning. How can anyone think that this has become passe? I certainly don't find it boring...I find it so absolutely mind-numbingly exciting that I am probably going to spend the rest of my life working in the field of "cyber-sociology." I want to chase the dream. I want to help shape the future. Balanced precariously, I leap for the dream. If I were to suggest a topic for discussion it would be what I wrote of above...the future of the 'Net, and how the 'Net will change humankind forever. Just a thought from one of the grandkids. (no offense meant, I hope none was taken...) dlr wearing: something casual listening: my roommate making a midnight snack thinking: about future history, and (still) archaeology in cyberspace. Article: 10715 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Alan Sondheim Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 09:28:06 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 31 Message-ID: <341be6$72o@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408310728.7252.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 03:27:05 -0400 Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408310531.AA26267@panix.com> I just want to say that I agree with D.L.Richardson's post. And it's also worthwhile to remember that the author of the bubble manifesto abandoned cyberspace himself, if I'm not mistaken with some posts that basically said 'get a life,' as if he had gone through a rite of passage and is beyond all of this. So there's no way to return, and forgive me for saying this, but even the bubble manifesto is just a bubble, past history, what Richardson might call (borrowing his term) the archaeology of cyberspace. But as he pointed out, the dream is just beginning. I'm teaching a course on "the information superhighway, past and future" online and inclass this fall at the New School, and I'm amazed at how much is yet to happen, how much we are at the beginning, not the end of things. Open your eyes, not only to the technological possibilities (VR, nanotech, videoconf, etc.) but to the political and psychological consequences related to them - we _still_ don't know how to respond for example to someone's death in cyberspace, real or imagined; to offerings of love or flames of hate - we don't know the real consequences of Clipper Chip or PGP or what-have-you. This is the time to intensify, if anything, concepts of future culture, and explore them... (I might direct anyone interested to the following additional groups - Cybermind, which Michael Current and I started; alt.destroy.the.internet, alt.hackers, alt.cyberpunk, alt.culture.internet, the Net-Happenings list (I think that's Gerald Sackman on listserv, forget), and whatever happened to Frost's Cyberpoetics (forget the exact title) compendium, which is one of the best things I've come across?) Pretend it's the year 2020, you've got clear vision and can see forever... Alan Article: 10716 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "Gregory H. Ritter" Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 16:21:58 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 116 Message-ID: <3423m6$30q@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311421.3076.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 10:20:14 EDT Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC [*snip*] > > I guess I just get frustrated when I see people say that the 'Net > has become no more than just another phone system, or that the > thrill is gone now that it is no longer "undiscovered country." > I am doing my thesis about the 'Net, [*snip*] [grin] When people start writing theses and dissertations about something, that's proof enough for me that the subject has moved from the fringe to the commonplace, from the edge to the middle. > When Gutenberg invented his printing press, he > changed world history. Knowledge could be stored, transmitted, > passed on. The 'Net, however, is a creature far more pervasive, > farther reaching, instantaneous, huge. Never before in the history > of humankind have we encountered a medium of this nature, of such > massive potential for both the good and bad of those who use it. Yah, we all agree with that , D.L., but that's no longer much of substantive discussion. It's been said a gazillion times already (here on FC and elsewhere). The "Whoa, isn't Mosaic the shit!" kind of thread just doesn't float here anymore because most of Net society agreed on that kind of thing a long time ago. > Orson Scott Card wrote of a future where every person in the world > had a laptop, an account, and the ability to quickly > and easily communicate with any other human being in the world. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ummm...ever use a phone? It's a lot easier than ELM. Easy communication is not the issue. Rapid exchange of large amounts of information is the issue. > That's what's > happening out there...it's not "just another phone system," it's > a medium that will make each user his/her own writer, publisher, > editor, distributor. It is putting the power of the mass media in > the hands of the masses. Actually, the Net is (and probably will remain for a long time, perhaps forever) a bourgeois-only commodity, relegated to the hands of the educated and the economically-advantaged. How close are actual workable and AFFORDABLE personal digital assistants? (And nobody bring up that silly Newton thing, please.) Personally, I don't think computers/networking are going to "free the masses" in any sense. It's forseeable that some simple object-oriented programming could eventually be created that would allow the average joe to do something other than word processing, or that chips and bandwidth will become so cheap that it's as inexpensive as electricity, but I doubt that even if those things occur it will put the power of mass media in the hands of the masses for 2 reasons. a) the masses don't really want to or have time to run the mass media; they're too busy putting food on the table. b) a perpetual under-educated, under-informed lower class is a function of a capitalist society. It is not in the interest of those who have power in the capitalist structure to dissipate it throughout the masses. > It is going to change the world in ways > that will change the history of humankind far more powerfully than > Gutenberg's press. The 'Net we know now is only the seed of the > 'Net that will be created over the next 20, 50, 100 years. This is > just the beginning. > > How can anyone think that this has become passe? The Net hasn't become passe. Just the kind of gee-whiz enthusiasm that characterized it in the early days -- which were about 2 years ago. >I certainly don't > find it boring...I find it so absolutely mind-numbingly exciting > that I am probably going to spend the rest of my life working in > the field of "cyber-sociology." I want to chase the dream. I want > to help shape the future. > > Balanced precariously, I leap for the dream. > > If I were to suggest a topic for discussion it would be what I > wrote of above...the future of the 'Net, and how the 'Net will > change humankind forever. Sheesh. "The future of the 'Net"?!? "How the 'Net will change humankind forever"?!? C'mon, man. Be a little more specific at least. What's the friggin' thesis on? ;-) Greg Ritter eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu Article: 10717 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Ernst Hafner Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 16:26:29 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3423ul$3bk@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311426.3380.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 16:24:34 MET Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: ; from "Gregory H. Ritter" at Aug 31, 94 10:20 am Ready Freddy ! Es laeuft ! Hab Deine mail gekriegt, hoffentlich kriegst du Die ! c. u. ERNST Article: 10718 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: CtG Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 31 Aug 1994 17:04:53 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 17 Message-ID: <34266l$5iq@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311504.5707.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 10:08:11 EST Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408302101.AA12656@csn.org> Regarding: Re: man, things have changed > So what's left? What _is_ the new-new-edge? (And can someone give it a bett > name?) > What's new and interesting in the world, to replace all of the above? This is exactly what I've been looking for. I mean, WWW even took a big chunk of attention, and still does. I want the next WWW though. (since WWW was the next Gopher) I think our search for the new-new-edge says something about us. I remember the information junkie threads, and now I remember how true it is. The next big fix will be... [insert name of whatever here]. Maybe it's time to look into /creating/ the next big fix. Suggestions? --- Chris Article: 10719 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "D.L. Richardson" <002134r@DRAGON.ACADIAU.CA> Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 17:30:10 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 45 Message-ID: <3427m2$6s6@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311530.7043.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 12:28:43 -0300 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408310731.AA29569@relay.acadiau.ca> from "Alan Sondheim" at Aug 31, 94 03:27:05 am Alan: for those of us who are interested could you post the info about how to sign-on to Cybermind? Thanks. As for my thesis...I'm doing a study on what Gregory believes will never happen...bringing the 'net to the masses...it *is* happening through the phenomenon of FreeNets, the NPTN, BAIL (Bay Area Internet Literacy) groups, and other like-minded organizations who realize what a massive effect the 'Net is going to have on our society. Those of us who believe that capitalism is far from the most effective way to run a society, and those of us who are willing to give up some of our time and effort to help, we will be the people who prove cynics like Gregory wrong. The 'net can be brought to the masses, and those masses (being the perpetually undereducated blah-de-blahs that Gregory accuses them of being) will take advantage of such systems if it is possible for them to do so. The key is to make it possible...and that is what I am doing for my thesis. For my master's thesis I plan on getting funding to set up a LAN in a non-wired lower-class community, giving free internet tutorials, and helping that community take advantage of the new resources that now exist. This is my dream. I fully intend to do everything I can to make that dream a reality, and I adamantly refuse to let the cynics take that dream away from me. Someone has to fight...the more the better. I think perhaps some people should rethink their priorities, and maybe go out and do some volunteer work to meet these "undereducated, under- inspired members of the underclass who have no time for anything but survival." If you get to know them, perhaps you will begin to understand that the proletariat has both the ability and the desire to take control of their lives. What they don't have is the opportunity, and it is the task for those of us who bridge the fuzzy gap between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to MAKE that opportunity. enough of a rant...I have to go back to work. dlr. I am woman, hear me roar. ;> wearing: work clothes listening: humming of computers in an over-crowded lab thinking: that I have to be at work REALLY soon. Article: 10720 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Nicholas Gold ARHS 96 Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 31 Aug 1994 17:41:39 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 44 Message-ID: <3428bj$7g4@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: ngold@k12.ucs.umass.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311541.7671.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 11:37:05 -0400 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC > >Regarding: Re: man, things have changed > >> So what's left? What _is_ the new-new-edge? (And can someone give it a bett >> name?) >> What's new and interesting in the world, to replace all of the above? > >This is exactly what I've been looking for. I mean, WWW even took a big >chunk of attention, and still does. I want the next WWW though. (since WWW >was the next Gopher) The next WWW? Okay, I'll bite. I read the VRML list. Virtual Reality Markup Lnguage. It's going to happen soon, folks. Strap on yer goggles an WHAM. This is going to present ENTIRELY new issues, I think. MUDing is a problem for some people? Hey, when VR comes to the Net, people are going to _live_ online. Especially now that you can order from Pizza Hut over the Net, right? ;) I don't think you can say at all that the Net has lost it's "gee whiz" factor. We have not even begun to _touch_ what the Net will become. I can't imagine what it's going to be like in, 20 years? No no no, we have lots in store for us. Be patient, I say. > >I think our search for the new-new-edge says something about us. I remember >the information junkie threads, and now I remember how true it is. The next >big fix will be... [insert name of whatever here]. > >Maybe it's time to look into /creating/ the next big fix. Suggestions? Hey, http://www.wired.com has a bunch of stuff on VRML. CHECK IT OUT. I think I even drooled the first time I read about it. ;) >--- >Chris > > Nick -- Nick Gold | There is no sin-- ngold@k12.ucs.umass.edu | I know perfectly well Finger for PGP public key, | where I am among other things. | -Jack Kerouac Article: 10722 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: John Frost Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: The new addiction. Date: 31 Aug 1994 18:11:14 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 66 Message-ID: <342a32$9f9@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311611.9693.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 09:11:01 -0700 Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408311533.IAA01926@mail.netcom.com> Ya know. I had been going cold-turkey for so long, but this thread has dragged me back into it. On Wed, 31 Aug 1994, CtG wrote: > > So what's left? What _is_ the new-new-edge? (And can someone give it a bett > > name?) > > What's new and interesting in the world, to replace all of the above? > > This is exactly what I've been looking for. I mean, WWW even took a big > chunk of attention, and still does. I want the next WWW though. (since WWW > was the next Gopher) It's already out there. Whatever it is. WWW on steriods. High speed, realtime hypertextual access and manipulation. And whatever it is, fewer and fewer people will understand how it works and the net will become more popularized, more hierarchal (the know hows and the know nots). The users and the programmers. The Hackers and the Freaks. The cycle will continue till, like in video, somebody puts a tool in the hands of the masses and we start the cycle all over again. > I think our search for the new-new-edge says something about us. I remember > the information junkie threads, and now I remember how true it is. The next > big fix will be... [insert name of whatever here]. This is how the future stacks up to me. It will be a war. An all out war for control of peoples minds via the control of information. 30 Million people have been woken up out of the slumber of television, a few handfuls of them are organizing armies. It behoves you to arm yourselves for this war. Before the weapons are legislated away. These are the battlefields Information Addiction. Information Control. Entertainment. Education. Drugs Sex You Me. 'Bots Agents Genetics Net.Snoopers Payment for Services Rendered You've seen the future, and it is now. You've seen the future, and it will not be. You've seen the future and you've nailed the coffin shut on Freedom. Information wants to be free, but you won't let it. Privacy is at stake. Your privacy is just information. Your brain is just information. Your love letter to Selma is just information. Will you release it? > Maybe it's time to look into /creating/ the next big fix. Suggestions? Going cold turkey isn't the answer. Standing on the sidelines of this war, picnicing while people are slain, won't cut it this time. Whoever said that there can be no Mondo2000 lifestyle without new-edge is wrong, the new-edge had just moved from hardware to wetware, that's all. Are you ready to take it there? -indig0 Article: 10724 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Frances Sendbuehler Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 18:44:53 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 25 Message-ID: <342c25$bco@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311644.11656.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 12:41:35 -0400 Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC Not wanting to sound like a "me too"er, but I have to agree with both dlr and alan. I got that wonderful feeling that I don't quite know how to explain when I read dlr's post a few minutes ago...that feeling that makes one want to go out and _do_ something, say something...to _jump_. (Now...if only I can get that feeling whilst working on my thesis today...). Those posts bemoaning the changing of futurec were downright depressing. Just as no one can make your life exciting for you, no one can invent the future for you. There's lots happening out there, so when any of those of you demanding change have the time, go out and find some of it and post about it. Fran ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: * Fran Sendbuehler * Das Schicksal und Gemut Namen eines sendbuef@ere.umontreal.ca * Begriffes sind. talk:sendbuef@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca* * -- Novalis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : Article: 10725 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: dan@TWICS.COM Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 19:18:23 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 63 Message-ID: <342e0v$d0o@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: dan@twics.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311718.13308.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 01:51:52 JST Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was dan@TANUKI.TWICS.COM Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC Inspired by this: > So what's left? What _is_ the new-new-edge? (And can someone give > it a better > name?) > What's new and interesting in the world, to replace all of the > above? > > -- > Evan Kirchhoff, kirchh@ccu.umanitoba.ca ... the bubble post and Greg Ritter's call for people to develop the memes that they value (or are incontrolled by?). I'm in a train and it is going really fast. I have my head stuck out a window and I'm looking foward. I can't see much because a constant blast of wind keeps by lids from opening fully. But I savour any glimpse I can get of the approaching terrain. Sometimes in an effort to get a better view I pull in my head and run foward a few carriages and jostle with others for another window seat. I'd like to make it to the front, and be on the cutting edge. I imagine the front to be like the shinkan sen, a bullet peircing the air effortlessly as we glide into the future, though, sometimes I fear that there is no front, no cutting edge. Still I periodically head fowards, hoping to make it and discover what controls this locomotive. When I see something really interesting or inspiring, I retreat back into the train and yell to others about it and ask them to pass the message on, hopefully to whatever or whomever is control. Or perhaps it is us that controls it in which case I guess I should try something more constructive than yelling, because I wouldn't want to put them off. But usually I'm too excited to do much else. Right now I am yelling about people planting trees and fruitful plants and not killing animals, and the importance of edge, people morphing songs together rather than pictures and deurbanisation and living buildings and very loud solid walls of music with an anti beat running through it (beats of silence) and children teaching classes of adults and the collapse of capital and damn Am I yelling too much? Well I'd love to rave alongside anybody about these glimpses of future(s) that I have seen, and about any that you might have. Please invite me to, l ike th Daniel Logeman y ed e a ne u n Dan@twics.com fl I S buzzing on the last days posts to F.C Wearing phatt pants and a skimpy t, trying not to listen to the japanese pop blearing out of the tv in my Tokyo apartment, but too comfortable lying on my futon, typing to do anything 'bout it. Article: 10726 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "Robert W. Jones" Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 20:09:24 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 8 Message-ID: <342h0k$f5a@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311809.15526.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 11:08:06 -0700 Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408311559.IAA11527@netcom15.netcom.com> I would like to know more about the ideas that you and Gregory have about bringing Cyberspace to the masses? How would you market such a service? What would be the operating costs for such a service? How would you deliver the hardware and training material to the prospect? I am sure that you will be able to get some seed money (a grant) from a major foundation. It sounds like a great idea. Wish you mush success! Robert Article: 10728 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "L.M.Orchard" Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 21:10:15 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 46 Message-ID: <342kin$h96@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408311910.17698.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 15:06:30 -0400 Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408310521.BAA10269@cps201.cps.cmich.edu> dlr sez: > Balanced precariously between a dream and despair. Been doing a lot of writing lately along the lines of that theme. Near future settings, where there the world is just as close to the abyss as it is to utopia. Two steps forward, two back. As many people believing the end is near as those believing heaven on earth is just around the corner. And yet the two balance out. Yeah, I'm sure half of you will come out and tell me how capitalism and marketing are destroying the world and the other half will throw around trite optimistic dogma, but the way I'm seeing it... We're at a stand still, and the future's all in how we're expecting it to be. If we expect an optimistic future, maybe not pollyanna, but better than today, our own optimism may empower us to successfully accomplish what other pessimists would never even try. Its simplistic, but its a theme I like. To me, there's just as much reason in the world to commit suicide as there is to plan for a benevolent future. The future isn't just a thing that happens, its us. What we're doing becomes the future. I'm sure that I'm stating the obvious, but its good to state the obvious sometimes. The Future is a cultural thing, and culture is people. Every person's little act drives culture like a butterfly's wings drive a hurricane. Maybe it enough of us butterflies start fluttering upward, others will follow and a cultural trend will start... ...and that's the end of my inspired post for the day. -- Wearing: Jeans, Sarah McLachlan concert t-shirt (commercialism! commercialism!) Listening: Depeche Mode, "Rush" Reading: _Moonheart_, by Charles deLint, and a book of Scandinavian Folk Tales and Fairy Tales Thinking: How much I should really stop playing Magic: The Gathering in IRC. -- Dionnus Elektronn "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." --Lord Tennyson, Ulysses (aka Leslie Michael Orchard) GSS/O d--(?) -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m* s+/- n+ h- f+ g- w+++ t+ r+ y+(**) Article: 10730 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "Graeme \"Grazoid\" Hoose" Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 22:12:47 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 59 Message-ID: <342o7v$isr@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408312012.19346.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 21:09:14 +0100 Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <"relay1.pip.074:31.07.94.19.10.32"@pipex.net> ------------------------------ Start of body part 1 Speaking as some one who only stays in their job,as it is the only means of keeping my net connection!!! I consider we are in a remarkable position right now.The access of the general public to the net en masse will only lead to a degradation of service.The facilities provided will drown it out and it will revert to an other mass media misinformation ------------------------------ Start of body part 2 service.The only hope is the good old Chaos Theroy of Populations which would indicate that it wouldnt last!!. The net would then revert back to the way it is now. Just think of books and cinema.Huge areas of "mass infotainment" now reduced to a few outlets. This is just a possible out look,the world has a long way to go until everyone is "computer literate".Currently too many of the worlds population still cannot read,but they can tune a t.v!!!! Use a video,listen to music on c.d,s.There would have to be a huge improvment in the GUI,s of computers to move forward that much. Tho' it is more than possible,as the rate of inovation of mankind speeds up.Look at the differentials between powered flight to space flight,and lcd watch to wrist lcd t.v!!!. Gibsons.sterling Rucker et all,have it right.The future is as far away as imagination.Today an idea is a reality before its even become a development concept. We should never forget that most of us are on the bleeding edge of an infant medium,possibly the bastard spawn of technology that is killing the planet. Or TechnoShamans heralding a new era for the crew of space ship earth,we should remember that the role of the shaman has always been to retain the memories and myths of their clan(archives) and to enter into other dimensions to lead the way forward to the future of the clan.(Sound familiar?). We are tellers of tales and fighters of Daemons. Grazoid ;-)* Wearing plaid shirt ,Cult "sonic temple" t-shirt,Black 501's listening to Eat Static "implant","abduction" reading my mail box and worrying about my telephone bill!!!! ------------------------------ End of body part 2 Article: 10731 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "Gregory H. Ritter" Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: The Net and Power Structures (was Re: the future...) Date: 31 Aug 1994 22:14:01 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 182 Message-ID: <342oa9$itv@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408312013.19386.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 16:12:28 EDT Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: ; from "D.L. Richardson" at Aug 31, 94 12:28 pm > > Alan: for those of us who are interested could you post the info about > how to sign-on to Cybermind? Thanks. > > As for my thesis...I'm doing a study on what Gregory believes will never > happen...bringing the 'net to the masses... It's not that I believe it will never happen. Matter of fact, I'm sure the Net or some form thereof will become mainstreamed, however I do not believe that it will inevitably become the vehicle for freedom that you seem to, nor do I believe that it will put the power in the hands of the people before "the governments become obsolete" (as you said in the original post). I don't believe governments will *ever* become obsolete, actually. I do agree that it will change the power structures of society but I do not believe in Utopias. > it *is* happening through the > phenomenon of FreeNets, the NPTN, BAIL (Bay Area Internet Literacy) groups, > and other like-minded organizations who realize what a massive effect the > 'Net is going to have on our society. Those of us who believe that > capitalism is far from the most effective way to run a society, Well, actually I do believe capitalism, though severely flawed, is far more effective than the alternatives (socialism, feudalism, anarchy)...that's a totally different thread, probably for a totally different list, so we may just have to agree to disagree on that one. > and those > of us who are willing to give up some of our time and effort to help, > we will be the people who prove cynics like Gregory wrong. Hmm. Did you miss the entire Net.nihilism thread? If you read it, you should know that I am far from a cynic. As for the implication that I am part of a group that will be proved wrong by a separate group of those "who are willing to give up some of our time and effort"--well, I suggest you stick to talking about what you have some remote knowledge of instead of making assumptions about where my time and effort are directed. Anybody interested in my social work can e-mail me and ask me about it. > The 'net can > be brought to the masses, and those masses (being the perpetually > undereducated blah-de-blahs that Gregory accuses them of being) I call 'em like I see 'em: the industrialized nations of the world have created a class-oriented society where it is beneficial for the powerful elite to make it difficult for the lower classes to achieve equivalent education to the elite. Do you deny that in Western society there is a huge class of people who do not have access to the level of education that most of us have had? (I know part of your response--your Net project is intended to counteract that. I'll get to that in a minute.) > will > take advantage of such systems if it is possible for them to do so. > The key is to make it possible...and that is what I am doing for my > thesis. Okay. The meat of the argument. Your argument seems to be that "the masses will take advantage of [the Net] if it is possible for them to do so" so you will provide access to the Net, and then all kinds of good things will result. Hottest thing since the Gutenberg revolution, etc etc. The flaw I see in the argument is that information is STILL a commodity and as such access to it by the consumers of that commodity will still be controlled by the producers of the commodity. Of course, the inevitable response to this is "Well, the net will make EVERYONE a producer of information." Eh, maybe, but I see only a few potential ways for the Net (or its descendant form) to develop *if* bandwidth becomes as affordable as, say, transistors have. 1. Bandwidth will be so cheap that everyone becomes their own Net/WWW/Gopher/VRML/whatever site. Everyone is a mini-mainframe unto themselves, in which case it seems to me that the Net gets reduced to some kind of super-hyper-phone/fax system where information is totally decentralized, spread among the gazillions of individuals/sites. Decentralized information, however, is difficult to access, organize, and make use of. (Can infobots or agents somehow surmount this decentralization?) 2. What I consider the more likely outcome: The Net continues in its current direction--a lot of individual users, some with more "information production" capabilities than others, but most people using the Net to access information that is stored at centralized locations/sites. (Other possible evolutions? Feel free to jump in with them.) In both scenarios, though, information remains a commodity-- something that is exchanged between two parties. And wherever you have commodity you have capital. Inevitably, there will be sites that have more or better information than other sites. It is in this differential that profit exists, and where there is profit there is power over another. "Revolutions" are all about altering this power structure, but (a la Foucault) I believe it is impossible to eradicate the power structure, impossible to create a system that does not have an Other--the differentiality of our own consciousnesses prevents that. As long as you have an Other, oppression is a possibility and Utopia is an impossibility. I don't find this cynical, myself. Within that view there is wide room for both improvement and setbacks, for progress and decay. I choose to direct my actions and beliefs toward positive change, even though I don't believe some kind of Utopia it possible. (Why? Because I've found it to be a more pleasant, less morose way to exist--we can shoot for ideals even if it's not possible to reach them.) Therefore, though I agree that positive change can be brought about by bringing the Net (or some future form thereof) to the masses, I think it is both naive and counterproductive to enter into such an endeavor with expectations of a utopian revolution, expectations of an explosion of freedom, or expectations of the bonds of oppressions being broken by laptops and modems. Furthermore, it must be recognized that the limits of a global society extends far beyond those that can be reached by the Net. How do you intend to "wire" people in central Africa who don't even have running water nevertheless electricity to run a computer? (The first person who says "laptops have batteries!" gets socked with a mackerel!) "Wiring the masses to the Net" is a political statement, because the masses you are talking about are really not the _global_ masses, but just the lowerclasses of industrialized Western societies. There's far more work to be done to Third World infrastructure before "wiring" those masses is even remotely feasible. And by "wiring" this one faction of the masses, it seems to me that you might actually be increasing the informational and technological disparity between industrialized nations and non- industrialized Third World nations. Everybody gets so fired up over how the Net will bring equality to the "masses," but nobody seems to be able to come up with a workable plan for how you get schoolkids in Ruwanda hooked up to the Net. Maybe that's because there aren't a lot of schools in Ruwanda. [*snip*] > I think perhaps some people should rethink their priorities, and maybe go > out and do some volunteer work to meet these "undereducated, under- > inspired members of the underclass who have no time for anything but > survival." If you get to know them, perhaps you will begin to understand > that the proletariat has both the ability and the desire to take control > of their lives. What they don't have is the opportunity, and it is the > task for those of us who bridge the fuzzy gap between the proletariat and > the bourgeoisie to MAKE that opportunity. [*snip*] I think perhaps "some people" should stick to talking about the issues, instead of making assumptions about the motivations and actions of individuals they don't even know. Greg Ritter eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu Article: 10738 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Neil Kennedy Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 31 Aug 1994 23:59:28 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 50 Message-ID: <342ug0$ldq@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Neil Kennedy NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199408312159.21943.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 18:58:47 -0300 Comments: NB*net - New Brunswick's Regional Network 1-800-561-4459 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC dl richardson writes: > It's a scarey place. Unknown, unwritten, untested, untried. A place > where many of us will go, still leaving others behind. It's a space > where nothing is certain, and only guesses, blind luck, and intuition > can guide us. It is the place that holds all hope and all fears. > > Balanced precariously between a dream and despair. [more stuff, snipped] warning highly tangential post follows message repeats warning highly tangential post - and which way to go? so many people look into that looming unknown and turn away from it, put their heads down and try their best to stay where they are. i've been guilty of that on more than one occasion. others take a deep breath and step forward. i'm trying to do that now, by upgrading my computer skills - i speak perfectly unaccented 1984 computerese, not exactly useful anymore - in an effort to regain some measure of control over what i do with my time on a day-to-day basis. not too long ago, it occurred to me (read: hit me HARD) that i was spending two thirds of my waking hours working for someone else, furthering their goals at the expense of my own. for many or most people, this is acceptable - for me, it is not. time was, i would not have even FOUND myself in a situation like this one. a rude awakening, indeed. enough to get me off my ass. i used to be quite a programmer, back in the days when programming meant basic or cobol or some such. i'm taking my first tentative steps into the realm of c++. the manuals are only slightly drier than arizona... :) i'll catch up, if'n it a'kills me, ya idjit rabbit! this isn't exactly a futureculture post... put it in your futureculture/personal directory. dl's post (especially the last quoted line, above) crystalized my feelings of that time, and i thought i'd share it. tyfyka n neil kennedy - kennedyn@nbnet.nb.ca 'do you think god lets you plea bargain?' - calvin (through bill watterson) 'don't try to have the last word. you might get it.' - lazarus long (through robert a heinlein) 'p: doctor... my arm hurts when i do this! d: then don't do that' - ancient zen koan? Article: 10742 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Brian Carroll Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 1 Sep 1994 03:29:04 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 67 Message-ID: <343ap0$ral@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199409010128.27975.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:17:14 CST Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC On Wed, 31 Aug 1994 12:28:43 -0300, D.L. Richardson <002134r@DRAGON.ACADIAU.CA> wrote: >As for my thesis...()...bringing the 'net to the masses.. >The 'net can >be brought to the masses, and those masses () will >take advantage of such systems if it is possible for them to do so. >The key is to make it possible...and that is what I am doing for my >thesis. For my master's thesis I plan on getting funding to set up a >LAN in a non-wired lower-class community, giving free internet tutorials, >and helping that community take advantage of the new resources that now >exist. Will you have to teach them basic computer skills first? Saving information on disk and retrieving it? I guess the public library's here are making a battle plan for public information access. I thought of doing the same in a culturally rich and economically poor neighborhood in the Twin Cities. I set aside the idea and got a job surveying vacant/boarded houses there. What I have learned from my initial belief that information access was vital, is that the information that exists out here is rarely "usable" in an economic sense. Meaning that the most valuable information I have gotten is "personal" and subjective. Maybe a book here and there, TAZ, Aristotle, and tons of stuff on the internet itself. Communication, yes, that is a good feeling to see yourself represented "out there" or "here" but I just don't see what is practical about access. Of course they deserve it, but do they want it? For a skill? Thats a good idea. Maybe setting up a service for e-mail delivery, so that it could grow. Yeah, the whole time, from the beginning when I asked if GR was a cynic, the time where the whole conspiracy thread seemed to explode, i was just about to ask about economics and net access. It bothers me. I have a 12,000+ mortage on my access, which is free from the university, and everyother student could have access, but they choose not to for some reason. It is not hard to learn, it is just finding reason to use the internet. Most of my queries turn up dry. I am often disappointed in veronica results, and even in some personal responses. the future...i see people sitting in factories in aisles at computer terminals, typing in text, scanning documents, and recording sounds and video. Information chop-shops. The manager sells this information, legal/illegal, to a node. Then when you query for a book entitled Networks of Power You might get an authorized text file, a french translated text, a french translated english text, an unknown translation text, etc. 14 book reports, a picture of the author, bibliographies, essays written, etc. That's a query! This information and bootleg information creates the book all over again. A book is reinterpreted when it enters a computer, either by error or by language. I think the first books evolved by being rewritten. I got way way off here, ECONOMICS. There would be plenty of work for people if they started uploading information into information depositorys. Who would fund such a house of information? Thats practical. Maybe the state will. D.L. I think people on futerec could help you trouble shoot your ideas for practicality, so that it is not about "helping the poor" but rather "introducing the technology for use". Article: 10746 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "D.L. Richardson" <002134r@DRAGON.ACADIAU.CA> Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: lessons learned Date: 1 Sep 1994 04:32:55 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 60 Message-ID: <343egn$s5d@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199409010232.28842.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 23:32:25 -0300 Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC I learned a very important lesson today about the 'Net. It has to do with the difference between real life and net.life and the previously perceived differences between the two. Today I posted a response to Gregory Ritter's response to my "the future..." thread. On lunch, short of time, short on temper, and generally annoyed at the people who surround me in RL, I managed to type and send a post to the FC list really without thinking. My response included a not-so-subtle flame that was nothing but a vent for my RL frustrations and annoyances. In the doing, I managed to make unfair and unsubstantiated (read: false) assumptions about a person I know nothing about, who I know merely as words on a screen. This has brought to mind the thought that maybe "instantaneous" and "simple" communications with people all over the world may have more serious consequences than I had ever imagined. The point is, I *didn't* have to think about my post. I merely had to type it and send it. *snap* just like that. Half an hour after the deed was done, I had pretty much forgotten about it. The world is a weird place. Humanity is wrought with problems that have been spawned out of past deeds, yet we continue to create new problems more quickly than we can deal with the old ones. Sometimes I just want to stop the world. Not to get off, but just to give us time to catch up. Like putting a decade-long moratorium on *everything* and making everyone help do a big clean up before we can go on. "No dessert 'til you eat your brussel sprouts," as it were. (No offense to brussel-lovers, it's just a figure of speech :) The ability to instantaneously act upon our whims. I was bemoaning the fact that RL relationships between people are horrendously over-complex the other night. Only to discover that the complexity only increases a thousand-fold when it's carried over into cyberspace. In cyberspace no one knows you're a dog. In cyberspace there are no prejudices due to gender, age, ethnicity, physical appearances. In cyberspace also there is missed the subtlety of body language that communicates with a wry-smile, or a slightly arced eyebrow, or a certain intonation. Flames can come hard and fast. And can be spewed equally as quickly. I learned today that flames hurt. Like net.death hurts. Is there a difference between 'real life' and 'net.life.'? The grey areas grew very much larger today. I have been given a great deal to think about. apologies for the meanderings above, and for other things besides. dlr Article: 10750 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Rodion Raskolonikov Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: the future... Date: 1 Sep 1994 21:55:16 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 93 Message-ID: <345bj4$hpj@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Rodion Raskolonikov NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199409011955.18224.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 12:54:36 -0700 Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408311911.MAA02426@post-office.nevada.edu> Hi Leslie! On Wed, 31 Aug 1994, L.M.Orchard wrote: > dlr sez: > > Balanced precariously between a dream and despair. > > Been doing a lot of writing lately along the lines of that theme. Near > future settings, where there the world is just as close to the abyss as > it is to utopia. Two steps forward, two back. As many people believing > the end is near as those believing heaven on earth is just around the > corner. And yet the two balance out. Well everyone's probably gonna hate me for throwing this ball of muck into the fray, but... Postmodernism, is in some parts, about the *end* of millennial thought. Western culture has been looking forward to the apocalypse or the golden age since around Plato's time. The four great Western systems of thought are all millennial: Hebrew, Christian, Islam, Marxist. What follows is some stuff I'm working on which tangentally refers to what Leslie said: All are millennial, yet all have been fairly thrashed to death. (Although, that hasn't stopped anyone from _believing_ in them.) Now, of course, I think it would be horrible if we completely lost a prophetic culture. (I say prophetic becuase that's basically what millennial prophets do: predict a glorious end point for history or mankind or wahtever, or they predict a horrible endpoint if everyone doesn't follow what they say.). I think that prophetic culture has allowed for crackpots screaming stuff from outside of the city walls, who point out the evils they see, and the solutions they see. Without prophetic culture there is only a maintance of culture which doesn't really allow for transgression. I think optimism is necessary, as in the case of D.L.Richardson's plan to bring the net to whomever she can (D.L., sorry if I mess up your gender; I don't really remember what it is. *shrug*). This allows for a type of prophetic culture which can say look what can be possible. However, I DO think that millenial thought is dangerous as hell. Dangerous in the sense that it builds false hopes. Sure you can say "this will happen." But why not "we can make this happen."? I'm really leary of absolutist statements inteded to reach a goal. Hmmm... I guess it's too early to send out this post since I haven't completely formed my hypothesis. Heh. I'm already back to my old ways. Anyway, comments anyone? > > Yeah, I'm sure half of you will come out and tell me how capitalism and > marketing are destroying the world and the other half will throw around > trite optimistic dogma, but the way I'm seeing it... We're at a stand > still, and the future's all in how we're expecting it to be. If we > expect an optimistic future, maybe not pollyanna, but better than today, > our own optimism may empower us to successfully accomplish what other > pessimists would never even try. Its simplistic, but its a theme I like. > > To me, there's just as much reason in the world to commit suicide as > there is to plan for a benevolent future. The future isn't just a thing > that happens, its us. What we're doing becomes the future. I'm sure > that I'm stating the obvious, but its good to state the obvious > sometimes. The Future is a cultural thing, and culture is people. Every > person's little act drives culture like a butterfly's wings drive a > hurricane. Maybe it enough of us butterflies start fluttering upward, > others will follow and a cultural trend will start... > > ...and that's the end of my inspired post for the day. > > -- > > Wearing: Jeans, Sarah McLachlan concert t-shirt (commercialism! > commercialism!) > > Listening: Depeche Mode, "Rush" > > Reading: _Moonheart_, by Charles deLint, and a book of Scandinavian Folk > Tales and Fairy Tales > > Thinking: How much I should really stop playing Magic: The Gathering in > IRC. > > -- > Dionnus Elektronn "To strive, to seek, to find, and not > to yield." --Lord Tennyson, Ulysses > (aka Leslie Michael Orchard) > GSS/O d--(?) -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m* s+/- n+ h- f+ g- w+++ t+ r+ y+(**) > * * * * Simulacrum, simulacrum, rah, rah, RAH! |o/ \o/ X X dionysis@nevada.edu |\ / \ (aka Troy Swain) Article: 10763 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!nac.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Dwayne Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 3 Sep 1994 03:09:50 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 35 Message-ID: <348icu$b54@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199409030109.11423.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 11:09:19 +1000 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199408310529.PAA25912@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Alan Sondheim" at Aug 31, 94 00:35:11 am Alan Sondheim blew a bubble, which danced and sang: : : What's new in the world? A lot of things: : : Viral technologies, nanotechnologies, body invasions. : The breakdown of the classical nation-state. NEXUS!! oh, woops, sorry. I'll shut up now. So, where are we headed from here? Is the world going to become, as Alvin Toffler would have it, a bunch of independant city-states, or is it just going to become a vast mostly-lawless zone dominated by multinationals? And if the multinationals take over, won't *they* become nation-states, in all but a geographical sense? : Not neural implants, but the neural networking of intelligence itself. Anyone else see that post a while back on the net discussing networking people to solve the world's problems? Anyone else think it was pointless? : World-wide gangsterisms. can you say 'multinationals'??? Dwayne. -|-+-|- r e t u r n t o t h e s o u r c e -|-+-|- internet: hiscdcj@lux.latrobed.edu.au, dwayne@leri.edu, dwayne@leri.org irc: ddraig on #leri on the undernet (/server x.pyramid.com) -|-+-|- OurAimIsWakefulnessOurEnemyIsDreamlessSleep -|-+-|- Article: 10765 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!nac.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Alan Sondheim Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 3 Sep 1994 05:29:41 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 13 Message-ID: <348qj5$cg2@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199409030329.12797.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 23:29:06 -0400 Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199409030110.AA25677@panix.com> I think the difference between a gangsterism and a multinational is that the former organizes from below, beginning with neighborhood terrorisms, while the latter operates from above. And it's not a question (re. Dwayne) whether or not we've seen these things before (look at 13th century Italy for example) but now they're heavily armed and cross- referenced electronically. And I doubt that gangsterisms will return to the nation-state in its classic form - population increase makes a threshold impossible to recross. You can say "nexus" etc. but looking at places like Rwanda and Ciudad Juarez makes it clear that the future is occurring as a double vision - a technological feudalism on one hand, and post-industrial enclaves on the other. As in Hegel, they feed one another. Alan Article: 10767 of fa.future-culture Path: nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Dwayne Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: man, things have changed Date: 3 Sep 1994 13:35:00 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 41 Message-ID: <349n14$hqb@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: Original-Message-Id: <199409031134.18248.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 21:34:36 +1000 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199409030330.AA03545@LUGA.latrobe.edu.au> from "Alan Sondheim" at Sep 2, 94 11:29:06 pm Alan Sondheim blew a bubble, which danced and sang: : : I think the difference between a gangsterism and a multinational is that : the former organizes from below, beginning with neighborhood terrorisms, : while the latter operates from above. Where does a criminal gang stop being a criminal gang and become the mafia? Where does a small business stop being a small business and become a large firm? Where does this blur into a multinational? The difference is only in degree. : And it's not a question (re. : Dwayne) whether or not we've seen these things before (look at 13th : century Italy for example) Oh, sure. PRecisely my point. If you dig deep enough, just about *every* government was founded by a crook or a bunch of crooks. : but now they're heavily armed and cross- : referenced electronically. And I doubt that gangsterisms will return to : the nation-state in its classic form - population increase makes a : threshold impossible to recross. Scale down. The nation states will, I think, gradually disappear in favour of city-states. But the end result will be much the same. : You can say "nexus" etc. but looking at : places like Rwanda and Ciudad Juarez makes it clear that the future is : occurring as a double vision - a technological feudalism on one hand, and : post-industrial enclaves on the other. As in Hegel, they feed one another. This has always been the way of the world. The future does not march at a steady pace. Dwayne. -|-+-|- r e t u r n t o t h e s o u r c e -|-+-|- internet: hiscdcj@lux.latrobed.edu.au, dwayne@leri.edu, dwayne@leri.org irc: ddraig on #leri on the undernet (/server x.pyramid.com) -|-+-|- OurAimIsWakefulnessOurEnemyIsDreamlessSleep -|-+-|- From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 10:59:49 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 11:00:54 +0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Marius Watz Subject: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Something interesting and not just a little puzzling dropped into my mail. It's appended to this mail, and I suggest you read it before going on read my comments. It seems to be an open invitation from a group that calls itself ".neXus", but which has no relations to the NEXUS project .rez, Dwayne and the rest of the FutureCrew is involved in. Quite frankly, I'm not quite sure how to handle this thing. This ".neXus" group states that they feel "close to the Future Culture FAQ and its ideas" and "As self declared cyberpunks, we would like to see the continuation of such free information". Sounds nifty, but what does it *mean*? Close to the FAQ? Sure, but have they been on the FC list? It seems not. And as we all know, the FAQ is not 100% in tune with the FC community as is. On another note, this group seems to represent a viewpoint closer to the original FC as of two years ago. Their stated desire to fuse with FC (either the FC web page or the FC list, it's not quite clear in the mail) is to bring about the following: "Future Culture--neXus, would be a hardcore Cyberpunk hang out and a resourceful information center to reboot the cyberpunk movement into something meaningful." I think the last time I heard the term "hardcore" used on this list was in relation to music. And "cyberpunk" seems to be a no-no word around here these days, alighting frowns on all and sundry. Note also the "group" mentality apparent in their post, with its ideological similarity to hacker groups. And they claim to have been around for a year and a half, yet I have never heard of them. Granted, alt.cyberpunk is usually dismissed with a press of the "Fed Up" button these days, but still... Sorry, I really do not know heads or tails of this thing. Their enthusiasm and willingness to *do something* seems apparent, yet I have problems with some of the meme guns they're toting. I know that there are people on the list that would like to see a return to a focus on newtech, drugs and cyberfluff (that's just a generic term for anything with the prefix "cyber"). They might want to pick up the thread. I'd be very interested to see what such a group could do if they take the task seriously enough. Hell, maybe we'll even see a resurrection of the ye olde FC spirit of days gone by. It would probably beat alt.cyberpunk, anyway. The Web site he mentions is up and running. It seems that quite a bit of work has gone into it, since it has info I haven't seen before as well as some stuff they've written themselves. The core group consists of five people, complete with handles. If I was to comment on it from an observer's viewpoint, I'd say that it looks promising, even if their manifesto seems a little naive as of this moment. Nevertheless, it's worth a look for those who are still interested in this approach to Future Culture. Don't want to sound like an aloof bastard here. Comments, anyone? mariushateme ------------------------------------------------------------------ From: ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu (Adam Mertz) Subject: future culture To: m.i.watz@usit.uio.no Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 21:45:14 -0600 (CST) Marius Watz, Let me start off first by explaining that I am writing on behalf of the .neXus. group based here in KSU. We are not affiliated with the NEXUS project, we are an independent group who just happened to choose the same name. For about a year and a half now, we have been working on a web site that would offer information pertaining to topics of interest to the cyberpunk community. We have, by far, come a long way since then. We have established a mild presence on the WWW, and we have gained an audience at a respectable level. We attribute a lot of our initial knowledge to the original FC FAQ that was maintained long ago by Andy. Although, not a part of the list, we feel close to the Future Culture FAQ and its ideas. As self declared cyberpunks, we would like to see the continuation of such free information, and we would like to have something to do with the future of Future Culture. Unsure of whom to go to for the presentation of our ideas, we decided to go with the web keeper of the FAQ, and the first of the FC to contact us. We are offering the following: 1. New maintenance of the entire Future Culture FAQ, including an htmlized version and an ASCII version. We have 4-5 people consistently working on finding info, organizing it, then htmlizing it into a final product. Right now our information has taken form into several sub-sections of neXus, this includes DigiHead (Net, Computer, Hacking, Phreaking, and technology section), Harmonic Resonance (Music), and VoxBox (social CP related commentary). We would encompass the FC FAQ thus so into our information to be maintained. What would probably happen is a merging of both our information layout and identities. Future Culture--neXus, would be a hardcore Cyberpunk hang out and a resourceful information center to reboot the cyberpunk movement into something meaningful. We do not intend to take this lightly, we will hit the net hard with the double presence. If you wanna get a taste of our philosophy, you can check out the digital thinking text located on our site... http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~psiber/nexus.html the doc is located under ~psiber/main/CP.neXus.html Commentary by subscribers to FC can (under authorization by the subscriber ) be posted to the neXus center as articles. We envision this to be much like a magazine... (and could be released thus so in a monthly format if we can get enough input). The ideas overflow... like I said before, we want to reboot the interest. 2. A new propaganda for Future Culture in coordination with its info-provider, neXus. Members will have the benefit of being exposed over a broader base audience with FC and neXus in conjunction. Hopefully this will attract new members to FC and its discussions. We also want to see more irc action and good dialogue and ideas being circulated thus so. This should also bring together the vitality of the movement. 3. With time, better tools. With the availability of mass communications devices like Mosaic, Netscape, IRC...etc - connectivity and information transfer has tripled. We'd like to take advantage of this by upgrading to more of a server-client protocol rather than a client-client. We realize that not everybody has the latest hardware or software, but we'd like to see FC move even further into the future. We'd like to see the machines do more of the work (automated IRC control, automated web control) - with the intent on expanding so much, that the machines will *have* to do most of the work. Also, we plan on openning relations with the project NEXUS in order to secure some sort of equal identity being that we both have the same name and very similiar interests and ideas. I love the idea of a NEXUS community as described by the project's initial discussions. I do not know the status of the project, but I have, within the last month, spoken to a member and contributor on irc, whom asked if we would like to collaborate (being that the ideas or simliar). What we plan on doing here is initializing a focal point for the community to re-centralize and form a more organized information exchange. We are dedicated individuals, and would really like to help out. If this at all interests you, then contact me back, and possibly we could set up some sort of irc chat session to discuss ideas. thanks for your consideration, \ / ._ _ >< . . __ * [ )(/,/ \(_|_) * From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 11:18:11 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 05:16:39 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Eric Cook Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: Hmm. All I can think of is that we are not what we once were. This has been a result of circumstances, evolution, and choice. Actually, I can think of one other thing; that being a comment of Erich S. in the "fcirc.txt" file available from the FCBOT -- that perhaps the time has come to acknowledge that we are no longer a topic-driven community, but rather a community-driven community. I'm sure the ".neXus." people mean well, but is that we want now? Is that what we _are_ now? I don't feel like it is. So, I see 3 main options: 1)We tell them "no, we're not interested", and let the feathers fly as they may. 2)We tell them "sure", and have the myriad parties combine as they may. 3)We tell them, "well, we support what you want to do, but that's not really what FC is doing these days. Go ahead and do it, work on the WWW site, start a new mailing list, but start it fresh. Use any old FC info you want, it's all free for the taking, but make it clear that it's _your_ deal, not ours." Am I being a jerk with this? Do these guys even know that the mailing list is still active? I don't feel like we need to be "jumpstarted", or to "propagandize", I guess... We're a friendly, somewhat unfocused, email discussion list, not a social movement. Unless, of course, you all _want_ to be a social movement, in which case I'll just shut my mouth. Any other slants on this? --Eric ecook@mail.msen.com From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 11:30:46 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 11:29:08 GMT-0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Trond Buland Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> On Wed, 21 Dec Eric Cook said: > 1)We tell them "no, we're not interested", and let the feathers fly as > they may. > 2)We tell them "sure", and have the myriad parties combine as they may. > 3)We tell them, "well, we support what you want to do, but that's not really > what FC is doing these days. Go ahead and do it, work on the WWW site, > start a new mailing list, but start it fresh. Use any old FC info you > want, it's all free for the taking, but make it clear that it's _your_ > deal, not ours." my vote is on #3! i see this as a new building in our neighbourhood, n o t a part of the rather strange (but nice!) house FC has turned into during the last year(s). we're slowly becoming a small village in cyberspace now: FC, Cybermind, FringeWare, NEXUS, Leri(?), and now neXus? have a nice day :-) tb <-------------------------------------------------> < Trond Buland > < e-mail: trond.buland@ifim.sintef.no > < phone:+47 73 59 25 65 home:+47 73 52 78 21 > <-------------------------------------------------> From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 11:38:05 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 04:36:47 -0600 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Adam Mertz Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412210958.DAA10120@grunt.ksu.ksu.edu> from "Marius Watz" at Dec 21, 94 11:00:54 am ------[.neXus. reply to comments by Marius Watz]----------- Marius Watz writes: > Something interesting and not just a little puzzling > dropped into my mail. It's appended to this mail, and > I suggest you read it before going on read my comments. > It seems to be an open invitation from a group that calls > itself ".neXus", but which has no relations to the NEXUS > project .rez, Dwayne and the rest of the FutureCrew is > involved in. Quite frankly, I'm not quite sure how to handle > this thing. > This ".neXus" group states that they feel "close to the Future > Culture FAQ and its ideas" and "As self declared cyberpunks, we > would like to see the continuation of such free information". > Sounds nifty, but what does it *mean*? Close to the FAQ? > Sure, but have they been on the FC list? It seems not. And as > we all know, the FAQ is not 100% in tune with the FC community > as is. I'll clarify what is meant by "close to the Future Culture FAQ." When we all first started to learn and grow on the net, the .neXus. group was a bunch of idealistic enthusiasists with a lot to learn. I know I did not know a damn thing about anything until i learned how to use UNIX and ftp and did a crapload of info searching and did myself justice by learning as much as possible before opening my mouth, as did my companions. I know that one of the first sources I came across that offered a huge amount of insight into cyber-culture was the Future Culture FAQ. I would say, that the entire .neXus. concept was altered since then. The FC FAQ as is, is a bit behind. All we are offering at the least is to give the FAQ a refit to better represent the information. Also, lack of being on the FC list is a bit of a short coming, and I wish that I had joined the mailing list earlier. This however is not a bad thing. More will be explained later. Right now I am on the list and I intend to remain on it. > On another note, this group seems to represent a viewpoint > closer to the original FC as of two years ago. Their stated > desire to fuse with FC (either the FC web page or the FC list, > it's not quite clear in the mail) is to bring about the following: > "Future Culture--neXus, would be a hardcore Cyberpunk hang out and > a resourceful information center to reboot the cyberpunk movement > into something meaningful." > I think the last time I heard the term "hardcore" used on this > list was in relation to music. And "cyberpunk" seems to be a no-no > word around here these days, alighting frowns on all and sundry. > Note also the "group" mentality apparent in their post, with its > ideological similarity to hacker groups. And they claim to have > been around for a year and a half, yet I have never heard of them. > Granted, alt.cyberpunk is usually dismissed with a press of the > "Fed Up" button these days, but still... Agreed. If you had read the Digital Thinking doc on our website, you will have discovered what we think about the cyber-hype: "We consider ourselves to be cyberpunks. As it is... the term cyberpunk, in our opinion, is overused. This is because the ambiguity in the terminology has become too big. Things need to be redefined for a lot of reasons. We are not in the business of recoining buzz terms; rather, we would like to see a more consistent viewpoint on the now media-hyped cyberpunk world." So i will not attempt to explain why I used "hardcore" to describe what we would like to see happen, I am only going to suggest that we think the "attitude" of cybpunk to mean something again. The whole cyberpunk term could be dropped as far as we are concerned, the only problem is, for the idea to exist a name must be given. That is a whole new topic... one which we should pick up at some point. > Sorry, I really do not know heads or tails of this thing. Their > enthusiasm and willingness to *do something* seems apparent, yet > I have problems with some of the meme guns they're toting. I know > that there are people on the list that would like to see a return > to a focus on newtech, drugs and cyberfluff (that's just a > generic term for anything with the prefix "cyber"). They might > want to pick up the thread. I'd be very interested to see what such > a group could do if they take the task seriously enough. Hell, > maybe we'll even see a resurrection of the ye olde FC spirit of > days gone by. It would probably beat alt.cyberpunk, anyway. alt.cyberpunk is dead. We haven't finished it yet, but on the top ten list of essays to be written is "Why we think alt.cyberpunk fails to accomplish what it stands for." What it fails at is the inability to focus on the meaningful part of the cyberpunk equation: as you said, a return of newtech, drugs, etc. The other half is the revolution side of the movement. Stand up for what you believe in. That is what we want to accomplish. > The Web site he mentions is up and running. It seems that quite a > bit of work has gone into it, since it has info I haven't seen before > as well as some stuff they've written themselves. The core group > consists of five people, complete with handles. We are in the midst of feeling comfortable with our product and hard work. Thus so, we have not made our presence known at a huge level. However, where we have spoken out, generally we have received applause. > If I was to comment on it from an observer's viewpoint, I'd say > that it looks promising, even if their manifesto seems a little > naive as of this moment. Nevertheless, it's worth a look for those > who are still interested in this approach to Future Culture. > Don't want to sound like an aloof bastard here. Comments, anyone? No... you dont sound like an aloof bastard... :-) you sound like a concerned member of the FC mailing list. In the simplest of terms... all .neXus. wants to do is remaintain the FAQ and hopefully bring new fire to the movement. We thought the FC was one of the best places to start. Adam Mertz n.9 From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 15:28:38 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:23:46 +1100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Dwayne Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412210958.UAA11391@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Marius Watz" at Dec 21, 94 11:00:54 am I peeled a grape, and found that Marius Watz had written upon it: : : It seems to be an open invitation from a group that calls : itself ".neXus", but which has no relations to the NEXUS : project .rez, Dwayne and the rest of the FutureCrew is : involved in. Quite frankly, I'm not quite sure how to handle : this thing. I'm in contact with one of the neXus group at the moment, actually. He wants to get together with me on irc some time and discuss what they have to offer us. Interesting....... : : From: ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu (Adam Mertz) : That's the guy. : I think the last time I heard the term "hardcore" used on this : list was in relation to music. And "cyberpunk" seems to be a no-no : word around here these days, alighting frowns on all and sundry. : Note also the "group" mentality apparent in their post, with its : ideological similarity to hacker groups. And they claim to have : been around for a year and a half, yet I have never heard of them. : Granted, alt.cyberpunk is usually dismissed with a press of the : "Fed Up" button these days, but still... I wandered into #nexus one night on efnet, during my Babylonian Exile from #leri and lerinet, and discovered that not only were there some people in MY channel, but they had a functioning group calling itself nexus. Curious. So, we swapped URL's (heh, no busines cards in cyberspace. Hey, that's a thought, my homepage on my business card. Heh. Need a business card first. Shit, need a business. Naah, just the card), I read their stuff, he read my stuff, and the nexus stuff, and all the other assorted stuph I have stuffed in the website (http:www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/nexus.html (heh)), and now he's mailed marius and myself on probably the same day. Stranger and stranger. : Sorry, I really do not know heads or tails of this thing. Their : enthusiasm and willingness to *do something* seems apparent, yet : I have problems with some of the meme guns they're toting. I know : that there are people on the list that would like to see a return : to a focus on newtech, drugs and cyberfluff (that's just a : generic term for anything with the prefix "cyber"). They might : want to pick up the thread. I'd be very interested to see what such : a group could do if they take the task seriously enough. Hell, : maybe we'll even see a resurrection of the ye olde FC spirit of : days gone by. It would probably beat alt.cyberpunk, anyway. undergrad. Which is still useful and interesting, but that's how they strike me. But I've had no interactive exchange with them, really, so who knows? : If I was to comment on it from an observer's viewpoint, I'd say : that it looks promising, even if their manifesto seems a little : naive as of this moment. Nevertheless, it's worth a look for those : who are still interested in this approach to Future Culture. : : Don't want to sound like an aloof bastard here. Comments, anyone? It's worth a read. Dwayne. : We are offering the following: : : 1. New maintenance of the entire Future Culture FAQ, including : an htmlized version and an ASCII version. We have 4-5 people : consistently working on finding info, organizing it, then htmlizing : it into a final product. This could be useful. But, I'd feel funny about people not on the list maintaining the FAQ. Memetic control is easy to acquire, I've found. : Commentary by subscribers to FC can (under authorization by the : subscriber ) be posted to the neXus center as articles. We envision : this to be much like a magazine... (and could be released thus so : in a monthly format if we can get enough input). The ideas : overflow... like I said before, we want to reboot the interest. This could be useful. And people could htmlise threads up. Hmm. Interesting. It's a uni site, how long will it be maintained? : 2. A new propaganda for Future Culture in coordination with its : info-provider, neXus. Members will have the benefit of being : exposed over a broader base audience with FC and neXus in : conjunction. Hopefully this will attract new members to FC and its : discussions. We also want to see more irc action and good dialogue : and ideas being circulated thus so. This should also bring together : the vitality of the movement. Mind you, they are 5 people. And they offer *us* greater exposure and publicity? Hmmmm. Quite the opposite, I'd say. : 3. With time, better tools. With the availability of mass communications : devices like Mosaic, Netscape, IRC...etc - connectivity and information : transfer has tripled. We'd like to take advantage of this by upgrading : to more of a server-client protocol rather than a client-client. We : realize that not everybody has the latest hardware or software, but : we'd like to see FC move even further into the future. We'd like : to see the machines do more of the work (automated IRC control, : automated web control) - with the intent on expanding so much, that : the machines will *have* to do most of the work. This is all well and good, but what does it mean? Can they do this? How? : Also, we plan on openning relations with the project NEXUS in order to : secure some sort of equal identity being that we both have the same : name and very similiar interests and ideas. I love the idea of a NEXUS : community as described by the project's initial discussions. I do not : know the status of the project, but I have, within the last month, : spoken to a member and contributor on irc, whom asked if we would like : to collaborate (being that the ideas or simliar). What we plan on : doing here is initializing a focal point for the community to : re-centralize and form a more organized information exchange. Heh, that was me. He's been (briefly) updated on what's happening. : We are dedicated individuals, and would really like to help out. If : this at all interests you, then contact me back, and possibly we could : set up some sort of irc chat session to discuss ideas. Well. It sounds good. I'm interested, but cautious. Doubly so as far as NEXUS goes. Dwayne. -------> hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 15:46:47 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:31:16 +1100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Dwayne Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412211017.VAA11787@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Eric Cook" at Dec 21, 94 05:16:39 am I peeled a grape, and found that Eric Cook had written upon it: : : All I can think of is that we are not what we once were. Dang! Someone let that progress cat out of the bag again! :-) : I'm sure the ".neXus." people mean well, but is that we want now? Is : that what we _are_ now? I don't feel like it is. I don't think we are that at all. : 2)We tell them "sure", and have the myriad parties combine as they may. I vote for this. I'm interested, some of us have our own ideas as to how we want things to happen, and that's vaguely cyberpunkish enough that these guys might be able to head down that path for a while. The memetic attractors are there, sort of. : Am I being a jerk with this? Do these guys even know that the mailing : list is still active? I don't feel like we need to be "jumpstarted", or : to "propagandize", I guess... We're a friendly, somewhat unfocused, email : discussion list, not a social movement. Yah. But there are those of us who _are_ a social movement. Most of us are on the NEXUS list. : Unless, of course, you all _want_ to be a social movement, in which case : I'll just shut my mouth. Oh, I think we'll all just do our own thing, as usual :-) Dwayne. -------> hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 15:47:04 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:38:21 +1100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Dwayne Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412211030.VAA10835@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Trond Buland" at Dec 21, 94 11:29:08 am I peeled a grape, and found that Trond Buland had written upon it: : : i see this as a new building in our neighbourhood, n o t a part of : the rather strange (but nice!) house FC has turned into during the : last year(s). we're slowly becoming a small village in cyberspace now: : FC, Cybermind, FringeWare, NEXUS, Leri(?), and now neXus? It used to be leri FC aleph, heh, things have grown lately, haven't they? Dwayne. -------> hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 17:19:08 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 11:18:37 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: fran sendbuehler Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> At 11:00 AM 21.12.94, Marius Watz wrote (and eric, trond, and Adam): My concerns are (and I'll warn you that this is off the top of my head): that they don't appear to have subbed to FC and so can't/don't really know what FC is about these days. (err...or haven't for very long?) that "Future Culture--neXus, would be a hardcore Cyberpunk hang out and a resourceful information center to reboot the cyberpunk movement into something meaningful." -- there's no real explanation of what this means. The possibility is that if FC becomes a cyberpunk hangout that we might lose our sense of community (but I don't want to sound phobic here..). They say: A new propaganda for Future Culture in coordination with its >> info-provider, neXus. Members will have the benefit of being >> exposed over a broader base audience with FC and neXus in >> conjunction. Hopefully this will attract new members to FC and its >> discussions. We also want to see more irc action and good dialogue >> and ideas being circulated thus so. This should also bring together >> the vitality of the movement. Err..._what_ is their movement?? And what propaganda? what is _our_ propaganda? I think that it was this section that rang my warning bells...but mostly only because I'd like to know what they _mean_. The words aren't very explanatory... I tried to have a look at their www site but the link was down...I'll have another look later. I, too, don't want to appear aloof or selfish, but would really like to know more of what they're about. Thanks, Adam, for your post...but you say: "In the simplest of terms... all .neXus. wants to do is remaintain the FAQ and hopefully bring new fire to the movement. We thought the FC was one of the best places to start." Hum... problem with this is that this is a community more than a movement (a community that you're totally welcome to join, btw). I tend to agree with trond's comment about eric's post...#3 sounds like a good option... Too many questions ... fran From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 17:43:11 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 11:37:17 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Videoshamen Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412211012.FAA27612@cais.cais.com> from "Eric Cook" at Dec 21, 94 05:16:39 am 'Eric Cook' made it known: > All I can think of is that we are not what we once were. > This has been a result of circumstances, evolution, and choice. > Actually, I can think of one other thing; that being a comment of Erich S. > in the "fcirc.txt" file available from the FCBOT -- that perhaps the time > has come to acknowledge that we are no longer a topic-driven community, but > rather a community-driven community. Exactly. The topic and ideas expressed in the FC FAQ have become not so much an agenda of conversation, but more like a memetic identifie, an enzyme of sorts that new people should try out first to get the flavor of the group. The actualy content of Futureculture however, seems to have become more like a cofffee shop or a tobacconist's, where people come in to talk. Sure the conversation will revolve around the stated topics. But I agree with Eric, that ain't the important thing anymore. > 3)We tell them, "well, we support what you want to do, but that's not really > what FC is doing these days. Go ahead and do it, work on the WWW site, > start a new mailing list, but start it fresh. Use any old FC info you > want, it's all free for the taking, but make it clear that it's _your_ > deal, not ours." Agreed. We welcome them to the same memetic neighboorhood along with cybermind, leri, alph, nexus (the other one) and any of the other lists whose orbit is on the same plane as ours. I think that many of the people (including myself) on FC would be very interested in getting involved with a list of that sort. But I don't think it really fits into FC's grain right now. Besides, I think that Dwayne is right in feeling uncomfortable to handing the FAQ list to a newcomer group. To me that has always seemed the job of the GOP (Grand Old Person nore the republicans), or at least someone who has been on the list for a bit. And of course by running it this way it gives incentive for people to start their own groups so they can give birth to their own memes. So to the people of neXus, Welcome to Future Culture. I hope you stay, this is one of the nicer areas of this concentual hallucenation, I look forward to meeting you all. But I think that I personally would rather see a new list that encompases your ideals, rather than try to force FC to change. -- Videoshamen It's not the Buddha, it's the tv set. taylor@cais.com http://www.cais.com/wwwedit/nick/ From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 19:49:43 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 13:47:00 EST Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Greg Ritter Subject: In response to .neXus. Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@VTBIT.CC.VT.EDU Comments: cc: ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: ; from "Adam Mertz" at Dec 21, 94 4:36 am Adam Mertz said: > > I'll clarify what is meant by "close to the Future Culture FAQ." When > we all first started to learn and grow on the net, the .neXus. group > was a bunch of idealistic enthusiasists with a lot to learn. I know I > did not know a damn thing about anything until i learned how to use > UNIX and ftp and did a crapload of info searching and did myself > justice by learning as much as possible before opening my mouth, as > did my companions. All due respect, IMHO, etc etc yadda yadda yadda, but it seems that you may have had a tad more learning to do before opening your mouth. You obviously aren't very familiar with the FC mailing list--if you were, you would know that it bears very little resemblence AT ALL to the several-years-old FC FAQ. If you had done a little more "info searching" about FC (like subscribing to the list, maybe) you might have discovered that this list is not very "cyberpunk" oriented. > I know that one of the first sources I came across > that offered a huge amount of insight into cyber-culture was the > Future Culture FAQ. I would say, that the entire .neXus. concept was > altered since then. The FC FAQ as is, is a bit behind. All we are > offering at the least is to give the FAQ a refit to better represent > the information. Also, lack of being on the FC list is a bit of a > short coming, and I wish that I had joined the mailing list earlier. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Understatement. > This however is not a bad thing. More will be explained later. Right > now I am on the list and I intend to remain on it. And you and your pals are welcome to stay on it. But consider: FC consists of several *hundred* subscribers worlwide. What makes you think that FC needs to "merge" with 4 or 5 people from KSU? [*snip*] > > In the simplest of terms... all .neXus. wants to do is remaintain the > FAQ and hopefully bring new fire to the movement. The movement? The movement?!? *What* movement? > We thought the FC > was one of the best places to start. > > Adam Mertz > n.9 Um...what makes you think the FC FAQ needs "maintaining"? If FCers were really interested in "maintaining" the FAQ or generating "new propoganda" (as you put it in the original message to Marius) I'm sure we would have been on top of that by now. Actually, what most of us are interested in generating is discussion, not self-promotion. Anyway, I really don't think you know enough about what FC *is* to answer any frequently asked questions about it. It seems to me that any FC FAQ is inadequate at this point (kind of like trying to write an FAQ for a town of 350 people)--how do you answer (or ask) frequently asked questions about a community whose discussions range from monogamy to digital cash to cars to virtual ontology to what we're wearing today? Frankly, I'm also entirely put off by the section of your original post where you say "...we'd like to see FC move even further into the future. We'd like to see the machines do more of the work (automated IRC control, automated web control) -- with the intent on expanding so much, that the machines will *have* to do most of the work." Putting aside shudders from thinking about 'machines doing most of the work,' I seems pretty hubristic to say that you'd like to 'see FC move even further into the future' when you obviously don't really have the first idea of what the current FC community is about (nor the meta-community that it is a part of that includes the NEXUS project, aleph, leri, friendly-l, cybermind, technomads, etc.). You seem to be an eager young fella, and I think most of us are flattered by your suggestions, but it seems to me that for someone who claims to be a part of the "cyberpunk community" (whatever that is) you have missed the entire point of THIS computer-mediated community. FutureCulture is not a corporation; we don't need to form a merger or cooperative venture with your .neXus group. I don't think most of us are at all concerned with generating "new propoganda" or "gaining an audience at a respectable level." I don't think that it's necessary to "bring together the vitality of the movement" because, for god's sake, WHAT MOVEMENT? Does FC really need neXus to be it's "info-provider"? What the hell does FC need an "info-provider" for anyway? To, as you say, be "exposed to a broader base audience"? Why? Your original message makes the [incorrect] assumption that FC is part of "the movement" that you keep referring to, and though pretty much everybody involved with FC has some movement or other that they're involved with, FC itself is not a movement, it is a community. Think of FC as a town, Adam--there are many different movements going on in the town, and they all intersect, coexist, and conflict in the space of the town. The kind of 'merger' you're proposing (with your "maintenance" and "info-provider" and "new propaganda" and "merging of our information layout and identities" and "rebooting the cyberpunk movement into something meaningful" and "bringing together the vitality of the movement" and "opening relations" etc etc) seems to me a bit like General Motors execs walking into a sleepy Michigan village saying "We're gonna turn this sleepy Michigan village around and make it into a thriving megalopolis!" And, frankly, that doesn't seem to me to be what FC is all about. FC is a collection of individuals who have chosen to spend time and share virtual space with each other because we *want* to, because for the most part we *LIKE* each other, NOT because we need to "jumpstart the movement" (have I said "WHAT MOVEMENT?!?" yet?). Here's my suggestions for neXus: 1) Subscribe to the FC list, all of you. Hang around. Listen. Talk. *Understand*. 2) Put a pointer on your WWW pages to the FC pages on Marius' site. Hell, put Andy's FC FAQ on your pages, but leave it as it is. It's more a reminder of our history than a definitive resource. When a community reaches a level of cultural complexity, there can be no single defintive document. 3) Work on *your own* FAQ. Build from Andy's FC FAQ, but make one of your own. Your goals seem to be different from FC's. Just as Cybermind's is differed, as the NEXUS project's is different, etc. It doesn't mean they don't overlap, but it also doesn't mean they have to be subsumed under one information structure. 4) Keep in touch. Give us updates on what's going on with the .neXus. group. The beautiful thing about FC, Adam, is that it *evolved* into a community. We grown stronger as a community facing threats to the sense of community and grown stronger dealing with our losses (rest well, Michael Current). If you become a valuable part of the community a link will *inevitably* grow between FC and neXus, but trying to force that connection is going to result only in a false sense of community. First become a part of the community, Adam. Then worry about the propaganda. -- Greg Ritter eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 21:10:59 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 15:04:56 EST Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Jim Reith LKG2-1/aa3 DTN 226-6581 21-Dec-1994 1504 -0500 Subject: Re: In response to .neXus. Comments: To: futurec%uafsysb.bitnet@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In responce to the .neXus. posting... While the FAQ is out of date, the list has taken on a specific "feel" that the current regulars enjoy. What's the big deal with having your OWN list for your OWN agenda and inviting us and our lurkers to come join? Then you can do what ever you feel and can get those of us interested to join in rather than "taking over" and existing, evolved list. There's plenty of bandwidth for us all. Set up a list (ah, that's the problem, you don't want to do the work to get started) and post a notification in here and we'll come visit. I'm interested in your proposed list but I like the way this list goes as well. Jim From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 21:16:23 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 15:14:15 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412211712.AA07553@panix.com> Sorry for the breach in etiquette in quoting a long post re. below, but I totally agree with it. FC is a community, a wonderful one, playing out the future in the present - I really believe that - without the necessity of position-taking, manifestos, etc. And why would the future have anything to do with cyberpunks, Mondo2000, any of these things? Why not just us, and I remember someone, maybe Greg Ritter, writing months and months ago about how we're just like everyone else, just here, and what that implies - which is where the future is probably going and we're ahead (my own feelings here) of the game... Personally I hate manifestos, "movements," revolutions - but I don't hate change. There's something phallic in taking a specific position and narrowing a community in relation to it. Alan On Wed, 21 Dec 1994, fran sendbuehler wrote: > At 11:00 AM 21.12.94, Marius Watz wrote (and eric, trond, and Adam): > > My concerns are (and I'll warn you that this is off the top of my head): > > that they don't appear to have subbed to FC and so can't/don't really know > what FC is about these days. (err...or haven't for very long?) > > that "Future Culture--neXus, would be a hardcore Cyberpunk hang out and > a resourceful information center to reboot the cyberpunk movement > into something meaningful." -- there's no real explanation of what this > means. The possibility is that if FC becomes a cyberpunk hangout that we > might lose our sense of community (but I don't want to sound phobic > here..). > > They say: A new propaganda for Future Culture in coordination with its > >> info-provider, neXus. Members will have the benefit of being > >> exposed over a broader base audience with FC and neXus in > >> conjunction. Hopefully this will attract new members to FC and its > >> discussions. We also want to see more irc action and good dialogue > >> and ideas being circulated thus so. This should also bring together > >> the vitality of the movement. > > Err..._what_ is their movement?? And what propaganda? what is _our_ > propaganda? I think that it was this section that rang my warning > bells...but mostly only because I'd like to know what they _mean_. The > words aren't very explanatory... > > I tried to have a look at their www site but the link was down...I'll have > another look later. I, too, don't want to appear aloof or selfish, but > would really like to know more of what they're about. > > Thanks, Adam, for your post...but you say: "In the simplest of terms... all > .neXus. wants to do is remaintain the FAQ and hopefully bring new fire to > the movement. We thought the FC was one of the best places to start." > Hum... problem with this is that this is a community more than a movement > (a community that you're totally welcome to join, btw). > > I tend to agree with trond's comment about eric's post...#3 sounds like a > good option... > > > Too many questions ... > > fran > From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 21:34:03 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 13:13:15 -0800 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Robert Smith Subject: Re: In response to .neXus. Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <9412211943.AA28677@goalkeeper.d2.com> from "Greg Ritter" at Dec 21, 94 01:47:00 pm BEGIN QUOTE FROM Greg Ritter: : All due respect, IMHO, etc etc yadda yadda yadda, but it seems that you may : have had a tad more learning to do before opening your mouth. You obviously : aren't very familiar with the FC mailing list--if you were, you would know : that it bears very little resemblence AT ALL to the several-years-old FC FAQ. : If you had done a little more "info searching" about FC (like subscribing to : the list, maybe) you might have discovered that this list is not very : "cyberpunk" oriented. : Hold on a minute... Practically every list asks that you read their FAQ to know what the list is about. Maybe they didn't have interest in the day-to-day mailing list, but hold the same values at heart. They seem to have something to offer members of this list, and you spit on them rudely. I am unsubbing from this list, mostly due to the undercurrent of attitude >from persons such as Mr Ritter. There is little room for any discussion outside of your vision of the future. Now, I know there will be people to jump and say "Bullshit! We talk about all kinds of ideas!" but from what I've seen, those discussions involve busting the chops of the person who brought the idea up. The 2020world list is a much better place to discuss the future of our culture, in my opinion. Good day to you all. /-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ \o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o/ / | | | \ \ R. Y. Smith, Jr.| | | Digital Domain / / tel: 310/314.2920| | | 300 Rose Ave \ \ fax: 310/314.2866| | | Venice, CA 90291 / / fixer@d2.com | | | 310/314.2800 \ \ | | | / /o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o\ \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/ From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 21:34:03 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 13:13:15 -0800 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Robert Smith Subject: Re: In response to .neXus. Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <9412211943.AA28677@goalkeeper.d2.com> from "Greg Ritter" at Dec 21, 94 01:47:00 pm BEGIN QUOTE FROM Greg Ritter: : All due respect, IMHO, etc etc yadda yadda yadda, but it seems that you may : have had a tad more learning to do before opening your mouth. You obviously : aren't very familiar with the FC mailing list--if you were, you would know : that it bears very little resemblence AT ALL to the several-years-old FC FAQ. : If you had done a little more "info searching" about FC (like subscribing to : the list, maybe) you might have discovered that this list is not very : "cyberpunk" oriented. : Hold on a minute... Practically every list asks that you read their FAQ to know what the list is about. Maybe they didn't have interest in the day-to-day mailing list, but hold the same values at heart. They seem to have something to offer members of this list, and you spit on them rudely. I am unsubbing from this list, mostly due to the undercurrent of attitude >from persons such as Mr Ritter. There is little room for any discussion outside of your vision of the future. Now, I know there will be people to jump and say "Bullshit! We talk about all kinds of ideas!" but from what I've seen, those discussions involve busting the chops of the person who brought the idea up. The 2020world list is a much better place to discuss the future of our culture, in my opinion. Good day to you all. /-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ \o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o/ / | | | \ \ R. Y. Smith, Jr.| | | Digital Domain / / tel: 310/314.2920| | | 300 Rose Ave \ \ fax: 310/314.2866| | | Venice, CA 90291 / / fixer@d2.com | | | 310/314.2800 \ \ | | | / /o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o\ \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/ From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 22:33:15 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 16:31:24 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: In response to .neXus. Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412212126.AA03409@panix.com> I want to formally say good bye to Robert Smith and hope for his happiness on 2020 which, ah, presents such a cozy future without, ah, I guess me. And I want to formally thank Greg Ritter for clearing the air of Robert Smith. Thanks! Alan On Wed, 21 Dec 1994, Robert Smith wrote: > BEGIN QUOTE FROM Greg Ritter: > : All due respect, IMHO, etc etc yadda yadda yadda, but it seems that you may > : have had a tad more learning to do before opening your mouth. You obviously > : aren't very familiar with the FC mailing list--if you were, you would know > : that it bears very little resemblence AT ALL to the several-years-old FC FAQ. > : If you had done a little more "info searching" about FC (like subscribing to > : the list, maybe) you might have discovered that this list is not very > : "cyberpunk" oriented. > : > > Hold on a minute... > > Practically every list asks that you read their FAQ to know what the list > is about. Maybe they didn't have interest in the day-to-day mailing list, > but hold the same values at heart. They seem to have something to offer > members of this list, and you spit on them rudely. > > I am unsubbing from this list, mostly due to the undercurrent of attitude > from persons such as Mr Ritter. There is little room for any discussion > outside of your vision of the future. Now, I know there will be people to > jump and say "Bullshit! We talk about all kinds of ideas!" but from what > I've seen, those discussions involve busting the chops of the person who > brought the idea up. > > The 2020world list is a much better place to discuss the future of our > culture, in my opinion. Good day to you all. > > /-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ > \o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o/ > / | | | \ > \ R. Y. Smith, Jr.| | | Digital Domain / > / tel: 310/314.2920| | | 300 Rose Ave \ > \ fax: 310/314.2866| | | Venice, CA 90291 / > / fixer@d2.com | | | 310/314.2800 \ > \ | | | / > /o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o | o o o o o\ > \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/ > From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 21 23:01:05 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 16:56:46 EST Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Greg Ritter Subject: Spittin' Rude Attitude Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu Comments: cc: fixer@d2.com To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Robert Smith said: > BEGIN QUOTE FROM Greg Ritter: > : All due respect, IMHO, etc etc yadda yadda yadda, but it seems that you may > : have had a tad more learning to do before opening your mouth. You obviously > : aren't very familiar with the FC mailing list--if you were, you would know > : that it bears very little resemblence AT ALL to the several-years-old FC FAQ. > : If you had done a little more "info searching" about FC (like subscribing to > : the list, maybe) you might have discovered that this list is not very > : "cyberpunk" oriented. > : > > Hold on a minute... > > Practically every list asks that you read their FAQ to know what the list > is about. In my opinion, FC is not "practically every list." When have any of us ever told a new listmember, "Go read the FAQ to figure out what the list is about"? (Fer crying out loud--when was the last time "rave culture" was discussed on this list?) As someone said earlier, this list has become community-driven, not topic-driven, and FAQs are better at answering topical questions than they are at answering questions about a community. As I said later in the post you quoted--I think the FC FAQ is an interesting historical document, but it certainly doesn't accurately reflect the makeup or discussions on this list. > Maybe they didn't have interest in the day-to-day mailing list, > but hold the same values at heart. How can you know if you hold the same values if you don't have "interest in the day-to-day mailing list"? It's the day-to-day mailing list--*NOT* the FAQ--that defines the values. IMO, the FC FAQ hasn't accurately defined this lists scope or values for years. I'm not sure if Robert read the letter Adam wrote to Marius for the .neXus. group, but I think there's quite a difference between becoming a part of the list-community and becoming the "info-provider" of "new propaganda" for the list in order to "bring new vitality to the movement" that Adam seems to think we're all a part of. (Have I said "WHAT MOVEMENT?!?" yet?) > They seem to have something to offer > members of this list, and you spit on them rudely. > I am unsubbing from this list, mostly due to the undercurrent of attitude > from persons such as Mr Ritter. Hmm. I have to wonder if "Mr.Smith" read past the first paragraph of my post to where I suggested that all of the .neXus. group join the list and become a part of our community. Of course, my only motive in extending the hand of invitation was so I would more frequently have the opportunity to "spit on them rudely" and submit them to my "undercurrent of attitude." [For "Mr.Smith's" benefit, allow me to assure everyone that there is an invisible smiley at the end of that last comment.] > There is little room for any discussion > outside of your vision of the future. ^^^^^^^^^^^ > Now, I know there will be people to > jump and say "Bullshit! We talk about all kinds of ideas!" but from what > I've seen, those discussions involve busting the chops of the person who > brought the idea up. > The 2020world list is a much better place to discuss the future of our > culture, in my opinion. Good day to you all. "My" vision or "FC's" vision? If it's the vision of me, Greg Ritter, I certainly don't think that defines the limits of FC discussion. (In fact, I tend to be a very vocal [and, to my constant surprise, conservative] minority in many threads--the _Wired_ thread, the pseudonym thread, the virtual ontology thread, the anarchy thread, just to name a few from the last year.) If you're referring to the list-as-a-whole's vision...well, the fact that I'm a noisy minority who regularly gets his virtual chops busted by Erich, Evan, Shawn, Dwayne et al. should show that there's a diversity of opinion here (translation: "Bullshit! We talk about all kinds of ideas!) Maybe it's not diverse enough for you, Robert, but you can only make it more diverse by sticking with it. Since you already think I'm a spittin' rude guy with an undercurrent of attitude, I feel free to tell you what I think your problem is, Robert (this being my own attitude-ridden opinion, of course): you confuse attitude with personal attacks. Yeah, I've got an attitude, I'll tell it to the world--GREG RITTER'S A SMART ASS AND LIKES TO HEAR HIMSELF TALK. I don't deny it. Of course, I think (just as examples) Shawn, Evan and Dwayne (oh, man, especially Dwayne) and a slew of other FCers have attitudes, too. I think you've got an attitude, Robert. The problem arises when you equate attitude with personal attacks (like "spitting rudely"), and that's an easy thing to do in the context-free medium of e-mail. Sure I've busted people's chops, but I've had my chops busted, too. Shawn nailed me hard in the gonads in the anarchy thread, and I came back swinging...but I still consider him among my virtual friends. The attitude is all part of the heated debate and it's how we begi! n to define a personality (for the positive or the negative) over the wires. So, leave if you feel you have to. As far as I'm concerned you're welcome to stay and I'll gladly extend a hand out to keep you here. But be forewarned: I'll bust your chops good when I disagree with you. -- Greg Ritter eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 00:12:22 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 18:09:10 EST Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Greg Ritter Subject: Re: .neXus. WWW page nonexistent? Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@VTBIT.CC.VT.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: ; from "Brian Beuchaw" at Dec 21, 94 4:38 pm Not so curious. I had no problem at all getting through earlier today. There is a lot of stuff there about 'phreaking' and so forth, some manifestos about waht cyberpunk should be, how the cops are bad, etc. Frankly, it struck me as pretty typical cyberpunk fare. I really didn't see anything on their pages that made me think they were "bringing a new vitality to the movement." Have I said "WHAT MOVEMENT?!?" yet? -- Greg Ritter eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 01:37:09 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:39:06 +0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Marius Watz Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet, ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..010:21.11.94.16.18.13"@uib.no> (message from fran sendbuehler on Wed, 21 Dec 1994 11:18:37 -0500) FutureCulture, future culture, PhuturKultur... It all comes back to haunt the old places. Adam's mail this morning hit me like seeing someone you once knew and not being sure you know them anymore. He even addressed by my full name! I always get scared when people do that. heh. (no problem, though, Adam). I think Dwayne has a reasonable approach. To hell with it, let anyone take those memes and make them their own. Build your world. We'll still have ours and none of us will be diminished. Part of what got me thinking in Adam's mail was the realization that I'm not *there* anymore. The FC FAQ is a relic, a touchstone of a place in time that I've been to but which I have left. Such a sad thing, really, seeing that document again with its now-defunct links to cool ftp sites (no WWW back then). Hey, were did ftp.uwashington.edu go, anyway? Damn, just the files Chris put up for the FCBot (tnx, btw) got me all wondering. Yeah, we used to be a *movement* once. We were fastflowingflash, IRC junkies, MUD-a-holics, net.trippers. Actually, *I* wasn't, but I was watching those of you who were and boy, was I jealous. heh. But this is still the Future, and we're still alive. So what do we do now? I say let it morph. I probably won't be interested in being a prime mover in such a revival of the Future, but I'd be damn glad to watch. "nothing like the feel of something new" But I don't think FC would be the place to do it. Too much Culture here, too many memories. You don't want to be pulled down by that. Start a new list, get some of the bright people (there are *some*) from alt.cyberpunk, FC, Leri and whatnot to come over and let it stew for a while. Then you just might get somewhere. You might have a new and sparkling Future right there in your hands, and since you have created it you will also deserve it. Regarding the FAQ, I say let it stand. It's a Holy Book, a memory, a ghost in the machine. To bring it up to date would be an act of archaeology, and the dilemma of archaeology is that it always destroys what it digs up. Feel free to scavenge, but make something *new*. That should be the rallying cry, for you memehunters, cyberspace cadets, infogatherers and bricoleurs. Always make something new, or it will be worthless. Take all the old stuff and jumble it. Snip quotes in two and crossbreed them. If their memes are strong, they will survive. marius From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 02:56:55 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 20:54:38 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Eric Cook Subject: Re: This whole .neXus. sheebang Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: Well, couple of thoughts: 1)I think .neXus. is free to take the FC FAQ and do whatever they want with it. "Information wants to be free", no? Changes and updates, of course, make it into something else -- like the .neXus. FAQ, say (with attribution to the original FC FAQ as being a source document). No big deal -- the previous major revision by John Frost turned the FC FAQ into the Cyberpoet's Guide, the new name reflecting the work he had done on it, and his personal slant to the material added, removed, or changed. n.9 -- Take it, run with it, html-ize it, and have fun with it. Make it your own. (And I mean that in several different ways) 2)I agree with Dwayne and others that there are still a lot of people involved with FC who are "movement-oriented", rather than "just" "community-oriented". That's great, and that's why NEXUS (I'm hoping the capitalization differences make clear which "nexus" I'm speaking of) and other such topics have lists of their own, rather than being subsumed into the FC list. 3)FC needs a new FAQ, I think. One that combines elements of the old FAQ, but reflects what we are now. This deserves a seperate thread of conversation unto itself. 4)As far as the comments of "how can a group of 5 people help a group of several hundred people" (I think Greg R. wrote this, the message is gone from my box now), that seems obvious -- 5 very active people, seeking to publicize FC, the FAQ, and suchforth, could do a lot. (Look, for example, at the amount of publicity that Andy alone originally generated.) However, it seems that we're not actively seeking to do that now. 5)Perhaps even, and this may be heresy, but...Perhaps we should change the name of the list itself. Does FC have too much historical baggage that no longer relates to the present, or is that part of what defines the list in the first place? Perhaps it should split -- FC "Future Culture", that reflects the "original intent" (and I'll leave it up to you all to fight that issue out), and FC "Future Community", that what we have become, related to the first, tied by history, similar interests and so on, but with a different slant. On Wed, 21 Dec 1994, Greg Ritter wrote: > Have I said "WHAT MOVEMENT?!?" yet? Yeah Greg, you have. :) We're not one. However, in the past, there were leaning towards that...more that FC was part of a larger movement, perhaps. I don't know many people that seem to feel that way now. .neXus. seems to, and that's great. If they can do it, more power to them. Whether or not there _is_ a movement still, and your or my personal feelings about it doesn't seem to be the relevant issue here -- the issue seems to be whether you/I/we want to be associated with it by name and implication. --Eric Cook ecook@mail.msen.com and, for historical context: "cookeri1@cps.msu.edu" "cookeri1@student.msu.edu" "zamboni@ap.cl.msu.edu" (Those don't work anymore, btw.) From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 03:04:24 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 03:05:41 +0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Marius Watz Subject: Re: This whole .neXus. sheebang Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..892:22.11.94.01.56.18"@uib.no> (message from Eric Cook on Wed, 21 Dec 1994 20:54:38 -0500) Eric Cook wrote: > --Eric Cook > ecook@mail.msen.com > and, for historical context: > "cookeri1@cps.msu.edu" > "cookeri1@student.msu.edu" > "zamboni@ap.cl.msu.edu" > (Those don't work anymore, btw.) Yay! Happy Zamboni! Weren't you a drummer in those days? ....vague memories drifting through the nerveforest... marius From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 03:06:08 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:05:17 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Eric Cook Subject: Re: have some disrespect, dammit Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Marius Watz wrote: > "break it all down" - W.S.Burroughs > > Ok, so the neXus people made a tactical mistake. Their phrasing > was less than perfect. But that doesn't make them worthy of the > community punishment of having to "understand" the essence of FC > as it stands today. Not to mention the snide remarks, the "good > riddance" comments and the stare-me-down "have some respect, kiddo" > attitude. Sorry, I really don't think they deserve it. "letzter tropfen vor ankunft, erhebend erscheint" - E.N. For what it's worth, I agree with Marius entirely here. Like I said in the last message, or attempted to, this is not an attack, not an afront, not an invasion. This is not a question of your/my/our opinions of any movements or their validity. It's a mistake to take it that way. > Adam, what I wrote in the last post still stands. I wish you > the best of luck. I might not join the "movement", but I'd > be very interested in seeing what you come up with. Same here, same here, same here, and same here. --Eric Cook ecook@mail.msen.com From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 04:03:50 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 04:05:48 +0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Marius Watz Subject: bad craziness Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet, efischer@wimsey.com, knut@gar.no, anita.leirfall@avh.unit.no, megafon@oslonett.no To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..134:22.11.94.02.08.00"@uib.no> (message from Alan Sondheim on Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:07:13 -0500) "24 hour pain / what you need's a healing rain / yeah" - Peace, Love & Pitbulls Alan wrote: > > "Church!Church!Church!Guns!Guns!Guns!Fire!Fire!Fire!Oh!" - Nitzer Ebb > > Marius, are you talking about Sarajevo? Yes and no, Alan. I'm talking about the seductiveness of war, about the necessity of violence, about the need for oblivion. I'm off my bloody rocker here, dancing, babbling, spewing. I'm not rational right now, come back later if you want me to be. I might be crazy, but I'm not stupid. I know what makes this body click, I know that deep down inside of me there's an anger I never knew how to handle. And I know that I can't ignore it. I don't think I ever believed in rationality. I don't think I ever believed I was sane. And so I don't think anyone else is, either. When all my chosen friends went to schools where leftist intellectualism and poetry readings was considered chic, I went to a suburb school where I knew noone and I was part of the 1% fringe element that dared looked different. I found myself submerged in the "people" that my friends would speak so fondly of, and I found myself fighting. Fighting to retain my integrity, fighting to make them think I was un-fucking-touchable (and I was), fighting to make them know that I would not tolerate their racism, their bigotry or their plain stupidity. You know, I learned to love them, too. I learned to love people suffering under the fact that not everyone has the social conditioning necessary to make their own world a good place to be. I learned to love people involved in petty crime, in joy riding stolen cars, hanging around shopping malls waiting for their life to pass by. Those people know nothing of rationality. They have nowhere to learn it. Most of them know only the social restraints placed on them by a society that *will* punish them if they go too far. And some of them exist in gray zones outside any control except their own tightly managed economy of favours taken and favours granted. It makes me angry. It made me despise those previous friends who could do nothing but laugh at my tales from the intestines of society. It makes me despise people who habitually see right through junkies, alkies and other of the less wholesome byproducts of society. Because I see them, and it pains me so. Seeing a girl whose glazed eyes spell out H-E-R-O-I-N sitting in a hamburger bar among "normal" people who ignore her condition with the ease of a butcher chopping meat: It pains me. So, yes, I want to destroy history. Or rather, I want to deny history's self-proclaimed right to tie me down, to bore me with consensus and to make tomorrow just like yesterday. I want to *take* the right to change something, because that right will never be given freely. Can aesthetics even exist without war? Can love be given without pain, can joy be known without sorrow? Dammit, can I ever be well without being sick? Yes, I know that the coin flips constantly and that futurism turns into fascism and anarchism into autocracy and love into hate. But even if believers are dangerous, you've got to believe in something. There are some things that simply need to be done, and there's no pardon, no amnesty to be given. I don't believe in ideology, but I believe in necessity. And I love you too Alan, as I love Greg, as I love Eric, as I love fran, as I love Daria-the-hidden, as I love spud, as I love Knut, as I love Elizabeth, as I love bookish, as I love Pip, as I love Dwayne, as I love Troy, as I loved and love Michael, as I love Chuck, as I love Chris and as I love the lurkers and as I would like to love myself. But this is who I am, and this is what I need to do. I'm sitting here at 04:00, and I shouldn't be here and I don't want to be anywhere and I'm high on anger and I'm high on hatred and I'm high on love and I'm high on the need to change. So don't take this wrong, 'cause this is what I am. And I refuse to read through this post again, cause I might decide not to send it. So take it as it is. It's a love letter, straight from my heart. From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 03:08:14 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: have some disrespect, dammit Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220133.AA17185@panix3.panix.com> On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Marius Watz wrote: > > > "Church!Church!Church!Guns!Guns!Guns!Fire!Fire!Fire!Oh!" - Nitzer Ebb Marius, are you talking about Sarajevo? Re. Below. I'm totally in agreement we need energy, always as much as possible, and anger, anger is an energy (Lydon), but a _movement_ is something else because a movement is always fucking believers and believers are dangerous. Yes, dance on the tables, let's have agitprop, but manifestos and propaganda, that's what brought the Jews down, did the Gulag, there's nothing necessarily great about manifestos and propaganda. If you want the demolition of the past, then don't fucking read a thing (including my own texts which use the past all the time :) ) - and that demolition is exactly what the USSR did. And if you want to be kicked in the head, go hang out with the nazi punks you described. And where do you get the idea that in a "sleepy Michigan village" "they're" not happy? Who are "they"? Isn't this just the sort of totalization that leads to violence in the first place? What I mean by all of this is I think you're mixing anarchic creativity with institutionalized violence, and _that's_ what I see movements bringing about in general - not all the time (re. the liberation theology movement for example). It's a dangerous mix. This has nothing to do with the neXus people, by the way, but a reaction to what you're writing above and below. And I love you so don't take this wrong. Alan > > WE NEED DANCING ON THE TABLES! WE NEED SCREAMING, KICKING MADNESS! > We need manifestos, propaganda, agitpop. Dammit, we *need* disrespect, > we need the tearing down of the icons, we need the demolition of the > past. I want to hire someone to kick me in the head every other month > so the contents doesn't get too fixed. Gimme some hubris, anytime. > Let's walk into that sleepy Michigan village and tell them why they're > not happy. > > "break it all down" - W.S.Burroughs > > Ok, so the neXus people made a tactical mistake. Their phrasing > was less than perfect. But that doesn't make them worthy of the > community punishment of having to "understand" the essence of FC > as it stands today. Not to mention the snide remarks, the "good > riddance" comments and the stare-me-down "have some respect, kiddo" > attitude. Sorry, I really don't think they deserve it. > > "itch itch itch" - Peace, Love & Pitbulls > > Adam, what I wrote in the last post still stands. I wish you > the best of luck. I might not join the "movement", but I'd > be very interested in seeing what you come up with. I just > wrote a list of things you might want to look at to get > going, but I deleted it. Don't want to drag you down. > > Stay on-list if you don't take too much exception to the flamage, > there are things to be learned here after all. But if you don't, > keep me updated. > > modernangelmariusdammit > From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 05:19:34 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 23:19:36 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: "a.h.s. boy" Subject: Re: [ndot9@ksu.ksu.edu: future culture] Comments: cc: Adam Mertz To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> At 11:00 AM 21.12.94, Marius Watz wrote: >Something interesting and not just a little puzzling >dropped into my mail. It's appended to this mail, and >I suggest you read it before going on read my comments. Marius et al., Hmmmm, /me raises an eyebrow. I read your introduction carefully, and, after completing the enclosed message, I would consider myself even more wary than you appeared to be. Yes, I admire their effort _qua_ effort, but I _did not like_ the tone of their presentation. First off, it sounded like a _presentation_ in a rather corporate business manner, and not in tune with the rather decentralized mode of operating found on FC... Everything Marius wrote about the distance FC now feels from the original FAQ strikes me as well. I love the way FC has morphed, and continues to morph and rise from the grave of inane discussions and disillusion. This is _not_ a cyberpunk list, and hasn't been for a long time. There is, perhaps, a place for that, but it hasn't been here for a while. Not that I'm knocking the efforts of the neXus people...I'm just not sure of the relevance of what they're doing to the FC list as it currently exists. These are points regarding whether neXus is appropriate. That much aside, I was also rather dismayed by the business-like tone of their proposal... I feel like the FC list has just been pitched to by an overeager salesman hoping to cop some business. New maintenance of the FutureCulture FAQ? Hell, it might need a lot of work if we really want it to reflect the current status of the list, but I sure as hell don't want _someone who's never been subscribed_ to be doing it. HTMLizing and ASCIIfying the text is a simple matter; Marius has a nice site for it already, on a heavily travelled Web page...I'm not sure we need anything more. Sheesh, do I really need to defend the list from the service offerings of barely related cyberpunk groups? Plus, the term "product" in reference to the FAQ doesn't sit well with me. A new propaganda? Is FC dying from lack of presence on the Net? It's not as if we're a tired old political party that needs young blood and a Madison Avenue agency to revamp our public image. And FutureCulture, its members and loved ones have always been their _own_ info-provider. That's part of the point, I think. Phrases like "this should also bring together the vitality of the movement" mean NOTHING to me. Better tools? What have they got that we haven't got? I don't feel the need for www.futureculture.com and free telnet accounts. I'm generally opposed to the notion of _centralization_ that seems to be driving the neXus collaboration with FC... Their Web page is almost like a voice mailbox hell...every page seems like a menu to other pages, and its takes 4 menus to get to information. Some of the "legwork" that appears to have gone into the actual information there seems rather extensive and commendable. But I don't understand what their bit is with FutureCulture...why don't they subscribe to the list, join the community of souls some of us call Home, publish their Web pages, and be yet another node in a chain of information associated with FC? I don't get it... And Marius, if you sound like an aloof bastard, I must be an unrepentant asshole. But let me clarify myself, briefly, if I may. --I do not in any way mean to slag off the work the neXus people have done and continue to do. No, I'd never heard of them either, but what they have accomplished is appreciable, and that should be sufficient praise unto itself. --I don't see what the goal of any "union" as proposed by neXus might be. If I get a glimpse of it in their writing, I don't like what I see. I don't like the idea of a "community<-->info-provider" relationship, especially with a group that has never been a part of this community. --I don't consider myself a cyberpunk and I'm not sure how happy I'd be to be touted as belonging to "the premier cyberpunk list/infoprovider". Whatever. Basically, I'm a bit miffed that I feel the need to criticize this neXus group and their proposal. Had one (or many) of them been a subscriber to FC, and mentioned "we have this groovy Web site, check it out", I would have responded enthusiastically, and left it at that. Unfortunately, it wasn't that simple. That's it: unfortunately, it isn't that simple. spud, whose Situationist International archives are coming along nicely at: http://access.digex.net/~spud/SI/si.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ a.h.s. boy ---------------------- manifesto overlord, dada typographics --------------------------------- spud on MediaMOO, Lambda MOO, PMC-MOO spud@access.digex.net ----------- WWWeb: http://access.digex.net/~spud mangez du chocolat / lavez votre cerveau / dada / dada / buvez de l'eau From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 02:33:51 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 02:35:38 +0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Marius Watz Subject: have some disrespect, dammit Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..010:21.11.94.16.18.13"@uib.no> (message from fran sendbuehler on Wed, 21 Dec 1994 11:18:37 -0500) "let's go swimming in the genocide" - F242 hmmm. I must say that the vehemence of many of the negative responses to Adam's tentative suggestion surprises me. Maybe it could be explained by the fact that we're approaching Christmas, that angst-ridden holiday in which good and bad gets their share of guilt and society reminds us that we had better behave or we will be punished. "can you imagine an extraterrestrial discjockey / listening to radio waves in his head" - Biosphere Hey, relax, people! Adam obviously put a lot of effort into not offending our sensibilities, so why not look at what he has to say? Who the hell are we to say that our way is the best? I agree that the neXus proposition is based on faulty ground (i.e. that FC is a movement, which is not). But why not just correct that fact and give them kind advice as to what to do? "sono il scherno / sono il sacrificio / sono le feci dal Signore" - Diamanda Galas May I remind you that FC started up as an offspring of alt.cyberpunk? That it was meant for hackers, phreaks and ravers? That at one point the FC jargon consisted more of funny misspellings and ultrahip buzzwords than philosophical academicspeak? Oh yah, we talked about cyborgs back then too, but few if any had heard of Donna Haraway. Dammit, FC arose >from the bowels of popcults with a techy slant, not from literary departments. "I get my kicks on channel six" - Underworld Sure, we've evolved. But I think it's the ultimate folly to throw away the history we so preciously hoard. I think everyone would be better suited with a separate list, but that doesn't mean we haven't got anything to learn. I know *I* do. Evolution is about change, isn't it? "I'm skinny, I'm white" - Peace, Love & Pitbulls All the talk about "respect" makes me want to gag. Maybe we respect ourselves too much. Oh yah, "reinvent yourself often, destroy yourself regularly". I'd like to do that, and god knows I try. I think communities like ours need to, too. "go naked for a sign" - Hakim Bey I can understand that Alan and Greg are tired of movements. Who isn't? But is that the same as saying that movements are useless? If so, I disagree. I might not want to join one, but I admire those who still have the energy for it, as long as they don't stagnate before their time. The cyberpunk movement as seen on alt.cyberpunk certainly is dead. The cyberpunk movement as seen on FC is dead too. Bruce Sterling wrote something funny in an essay about cyberpunk in the 90's. He said that people who still wanted to use the word and make it mean something would have to do their homework. But he also said that that shouldn't stop anyone from dancing on the tables. "Church!Church!Church!Guns!Guns!Guns!Fire!Fire!Fire!Oh!" - Nitzer Ebb WE NEED DANCING ON THE TABLES! WE NEED SCREAMING, KICKING MADNESS! We need manifestos, propaganda, agitpop. Dammit, we *need* disrespect, we need the tearing down of the icons, we need the demolition of the past. I want to hire someone to kick me in the head every other month so the contents doesn't get too fixed. Gimme some hubris, anytime. Let's walk into that sleepy Michigan village and tell them why they're not happy. "break it all down" - W.S.Burroughs Ok, so the neXus people made a tactical mistake. Their phrasing was less than perfect. But that doesn't make them worthy of the community punishment of having to "understand" the essence of FC as it stands today. Not to mention the snide remarks, the "good riddance" comments and the stare-me-down "have some respect, kiddo" attitude. Sorry, I really don't think they deserve it. "itch itch itch" - Peace, Love & Pitbulls Adam, what I wrote in the last post still stands. I wish you the best of luck. I might not join the "movement", but I'd be very interested in seeing what you come up with. I just wrote a list of things you might want to look at to get going, but I deleted it. Don't want to drag you down. Stay on-list if you don't take too much exception to the flamage, there are things to be learned here after all. But if you don't, keep me updated. modernangelmariusdammit From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 05:46:00 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 22:43:48 -0600 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Adam Mertz Subject: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> After reading everyone's response thus far, I now have a better understanding of what the situation is. This response will probably be rather long... as it will be an attempt to explain our viewpoint and add commentary, and also give you an idea of who I am and introduce myself as best as I can. First off, let me say that I think that Marius has got his shit together. I think that if you, Marius, and I had lived in the same location we would be really good friends. brian (beuchaw@ocdis01.tinker.af.mil) writes: > Hey all, > > This is interesting - I finally got time to check out the .neXus. WWW > page and *it's not there*! I get a 404 error - the requested URL > ~psiber (or ~psiber/nexus.html) was not found on this server. > > Adam Mertz (or his handle psiber) is not even listed on the KSU > Student Homepage either. > > Curiouser and curiouser. The CIS systems here at KSU have been rather touchy as of late, and it wouldn't suprise me if that had happenned. But I assure you all we have a site and it contains a rather large amount of info. We are considering moving to the physics department's SGI if permission is granted by one of the sys admins there. Greg Ritter (eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu) writes: > All due respect, IMHO, etc etc yadda yadda yadda, but it seems that you may > have had a tad more learning to do before opening your mouth. You obviously > aren't very familiar with the FC mailing list--if you were, you would know > that it bears very little resemblence AT ALL to the several-years-old FC FAQ. > If you had done a little more "info searching" about FC (like subscribing to > the list, maybe) you might have discovered that this list is not very > "cyberpunk" oriented. Hey Greg, im going to be rather blunt. Fuck you. I may only be an undergrad, and I may only have been "online" for one and a half years, but I knew what the FAQ said, and if your list had anything to do with what the FAQ is all about then we would not have a misinterpretation of definitions and what not. Maybe then, you should go about rewriting the FAQ yourself. As far as I know, Andy was a mastermind in his time of writing it. He put a lot of effort into it, something that you wouldn't have an ounce of motivation or care in the world to try and accomplish since you have nothing to do with any sort of movement or whatever... all you'd assume to do is sit around on your ass and gab by e-mail about ideas, while doing nothing about those ideas. Also it is that sort, "It's my house, so fuck you attitude" that is so common on the net that is ruining everything. That attitude is why people like Andy have nothing to do with this bullshit. This attitude is represented here by Greg: > FutureCulture is not a corporation; we don't need to form a merger or > cooperative venture with your .neXus group. I don't think most of us are at > all concerned with generating "new propoganda" or "gaining an audience at a > respectable level." I don't think that it's necessary to "bring together the > vitality of the movement" because, for god's sake, WHAT MOVEMENT? Does FC > really need neXus to be it's "info-provider"? What the hell does FC need an > "info-provider" for anyway? To, as you say, be "exposed to a broader base > audience"? Why? Your original message makes the [incorrect] assumption that > FC is part of "the movement" that you keep referring to, and though pretty > much everybody involved with FC has some movement or other that they're > involved with, FC itself is not a movement, it is a community. > > Think of FC as a town, Adam--there are many different movements going on in > the town, and they all intersect, coexist, and conflict in the space of the > town. The kind of 'merger' you're proposing (with your "maintenance" and > "info-provider" and "new propaganda" and "merging of our information layout > and identities" and "rebooting the cyberpunk movement into something > meaningful" and "bringing together the vitality of the movement" and "opening > relations" etc etc) seems to me a bit like General Motors execs walking into a > sleepy Michigan village saying "We're gonna turn this sleepy Michigan village > around and make it into a thriving megalopolis!" If you wanna keep FC a sleep Michigan village than so be it. I thought FC was cyberpunk driven and was enforcing a movement of sorts. But I guess that obviously is not the case here with Greg. Since you seem to have attitude Greg, and freely admit it... > Yeah, I've got an attitude, I'll tell it to the world--GREG > RITTER'S A SMART ASS AND LIKES TO HEAR HIMSELF TALK. I don't deny it. You can understand why I have taken an attitude with you since I think that cyberpunk and future culture should be a movement, and not a sleepy little Michagan village. How fucking lame. On a lighter note, Marius writes: > "I'm horny" "wanna dance" - Peace, Love & Pitbulls > > OK, so does anyone want to discuss rave culture with me? > I still go to those things, you know. Damn, I even make > a living by designing fliers, posters and record covers > for the techno scene. So I guess it's still important to > me. > > "tell this to everybody wherever they are" - Transglobal Underground > > You know, rave culture helped me enjoy my body. I'd dance > for hours on end, mostly by myself. Finally my body would give > up trying to convince me that I was tired and so it injected > adrenalin and endorphin into the system to alleviate the > fatigue, inevitably climaxing in a feeling of bliss similar > to the aftermath of sex. I have felt this way after every rave I've been to. In fact, my mouth is do dry after dancing I feel like it is stuck to my teeth. > "it's your world and I'm looking in" - Peace, Love & Pitbulls > > These days, I've gotten tired out a little, mostly due to the > fact that the house scene in Oslo is getting commercialized to > the point where it gets so crowded people dance on each others' > toes. Nevertheless, Norway has one of the most active techno > scenes in Europe. And techno is still maturing, branching off > in a healthy evolution. Ambient is still getting weirder, the > poppy groups have learned that it's possible to make good music > and still make money. the MW-rave scene here is someplace around the peek of its life span. If it is on the downside or upside, it is hard to tell. All i know is that most ravers have been getting an attitude of elitism and its ruining the scene. Jungle is a direct result of this. Back to the discussion at hand, Eric Cook writes: > 1)I think .neXus. is free to take the FC FAQ and do whatever they want > with it. "Information wants to be free", no? Changes and updates, of > course, make it into something else -- like the .neXus. FAQ, say (with > attribution to the original FC FAQ as being a source document). No big > deal -- the previous major revision by John Frost turned the FC FAQ into > the Cyberpoet's Guide, the new name reflecting the work he had done on > it, and his personal slant to the material added, removed, or changed. > > n.9 -- Take it, run with it, html-ize it, and have fun with it. Make it > your own. (And I mean that in several different ways) Well, I hate to admit it, but we already have. The thing is, we want everyone and anyone who is involved in any sort of movement to be credited. FC, originally, had a lot to do with supplying the masses with good information and ideas. We felt the FC should still be recognized, and it should be up to date. We have put a lot of hard work in it. You guys have a lot to do with it (indirectly now, but hopefully directly pending .neXus.'s future on this list), and we want to collaborate (not take over). If this is not what you want, then fine... the only crediting we will do is to FC's inability to progress and change. I can understand if you wanna remain a community and discuss topics, then it *is* none of our business. More power to YOU. Also, hmmm, i remember someone commenting on us being lame typical cyberpunks like those on alt.cyberpunk... let's see... oh! Its Greg, no big suprise... Greg Ritter (eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu) writes: > Not so curious. I had no problem at all getting through earlier > today. There is a lot of stuff there about 'phreaking' and so > forth, some manifestos about waht cyberpunk should be, how the > cops are bad, etc. > > Frankly, it struck me as pretty typical cyberpunk fare. I really > didn't see anything on their pages that made me think they were > "bringing a new vitality to the movement." > > Have I said "WHAT MOVEMENT?!?" yet? That is what we are doing now by contacting FC and project NEXUS. We have the bulk of info and resources, all we need now to do is mobilize. If you wanna find out, Greg, what movement I am referring to then read through this docs links and text: http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~psiber/main/centre.html it's not complete yet, but we have a lot of work to get done and we our just now recovering from finals. (Yeah.. that "undergrad" thing again.) NEW MINDS, FRESH NEW IDEAS! btw... yeah psiber is a lame userid, but sometimes i like to be a cheeseball. I like handles, so sue me. I hate 00's in word(z) though... ugh! fuck that shit. I am not into warez, nor is my companions... although if they were not such a bunch of poser elitests then we would commend their effort and try and collaborate. Also, yes... we are only 5 individuals, but we work very fucking hard on all of this. And for what! NOTHING... we gain nothing but apprectiation for the product. Hmmmm... propoganda? Did someone flame that topic? Oh yeah, Greg again. > Um...what makes you think the FC FAQ needs "maintaining"? If FCers were > really interested in "maintaining" the FAQ or generating "new propoganda" (as > you put it in the original message to Marius) I'm sure we would have been on > top of that by now. Actually, what most of us are interested in generating is > discussion, not self-promotion. Anyway, I really don't think you know enough > about what FC *is* to answer any frequently asked questions about it. It > seems to me that any FC FAQ is inadequate at this point (kind of like trying > to write an FAQ for a town of 350 people)--how do you answer (or ask) > frequently asked questions about a community whose discussions range from > monogamy to digital cash to cars to virtual ontology to what we're wearing > today? That is just it... it sounds to me that the FC is worn out. If you cannot handle trying to get new people to join your discussions then you are an elitest. Again, our difference here is the movement vs. community question. If FC wanted to contribute to the original cyberpunk, future culture attitude, then they would want to get the word out to as many enthusiasts and newcomers as possible so that better and better ideas can be discussed. Quit being an elitest, Greg. Also, FC does not *just* have to be a mailing list. You guys can spread to irc in full again. The www should be taken and used to its maximum extent to present the info you guys discuss. It could be a huge resource that we all contribute to. Your guys' posts to the list could be turned into essays. From essays we could have our own e-zine. The ideas are endless if you just put your "heart and minds" to it. All you have to do is say, "Yeah, cool... take our e-mail, and our ideas, out it to WWW and text, ftp sites, etc. Label it FC (by permission) and that is propaganda for the list and good info all in one shot. me <----- big Nitzer Ebb fan! "Hearts and Minds" or was it the other way around? just a sec, ill check my Industrial Music section on .neXus. ... 1989 -- Mute STUMM 61 (UK) Geffen 24213 (US) LP/CS/CD: "Belief" Hearts And Minds / For Fun / Control I'm Here / Captivate / T.W.A. / Blood Money / Shame / Drive / Without Belief YEP! Our group .neXus. is very diverse too for just 5 people. I'm sure the FC list is just as diverse. Think of the work we could all get done in coordination. Out of .neXus. we do have your common CP quirks... like hackers, phreakers, ravers... but we also have many other interests. Hell, one of us is a great artist. Another is a Mac user (ugh! I HATE macs, even though I am buying a Power MAC 8^) ). My point is that we think that diversity and contribution on such a list as FC would be a good thing. Some of you are afraid to do anything but talk and discuss and be a community... I also have seen some of you that are willing to make some changes. We do not intend to manage it all, like I said, we just want a collaboration. If we just go and start our own mailing list like you suggest we would just be adding more factions to the net, less diversity, and less cooperation. So. If you wanna do a little more, just e-mail us (nexus@bluegiant.phys.ksu.edu) and if FC wants to make a change then .neXus. is offering to help. If a few or so individuals request a better outline of some suggestions then we will go to work, until then... what happens. I will remain on the list regardless of what you decide... 8^) HA! Cheers! Adam Mertz n.9 From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 05:59:26 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 23:58:15 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220444.AA25637@panix.com> Isn't there a model of culture at work here, suspect to some degree? Why should FC or anything else be a movement? Why should it not be a container or community? Why is it old just because it's comfortable? Why should we live beneath the sign of capital insisting on the violence of progress? Why should we band together and not pursue our own dancing or drumming? Why does the word "fuck" in Adam's post just ring like oh-so-exciting trash? Why should someone crit the list without participating? There's always been an edge of violence to FC, no? From Lord Taliesin a while ago to the general gun debates, you name it. The hardest FUCKING thing in the world is NOT TO DANCE VIOLENCE? Or where do you draw the line, and what a fun lurid avant-garde holier-than-thou heal-all-my-wounds line to draw! Let's go FUCK some baby's head off! Wow! Alan From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 06:15:34 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 23:06:55 -0600 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Adam Mertz Subject: Re: bad craziness Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220302.VAA07047@grunt.ksu.ksu.edu> from "Marius Watz" at Dec 22, 94 04:05:48 am > "24 hour pain / what you need's a healing rain / yeah" > - Peace, Love & Pitbulls > Alan wrote: > > > "Church!Church!Church!Guns!Guns!Guns!Fire!Fire!Fire!Oh!" - Nitzer Ebb > > > > Marius, are you talking about Sarajevo? > Yes and no, Alan. I'm talking about the seductiveness of war, > about the necessity of violence, about the need for oblivion. > I'm off my bloody rocker here, dancing, babbling, spewing. > I'm not rational right now, come back later if you want me to > be. I might be crazy, but I'm not stupid. I know what makes this > body click, I know that deep down inside of me there's an anger > I never knew how to handle. And I know that I can't ignore it. > I don't think I ever believed in rationality. I don't think > I ever believed I was sane. And so I don't think anyone else is, > either. > When all my chosen friends went to schools where leftist > intellectualism and poetry readings was considered chic, I > went to a suburb school where I knew noone and I was part of > the 1% fringe element that dared looked different. I found myself > submerged in the "people" that my friends would speak so fondly > of, and I found myself fighting. Fighting to retain my integrity, > fighting to make them think I was un-fucking-touchable (and I was), > fighting to make them know that I would not tolerate their racism, > their bigotry or their plain stupidity. You know, I learned to > love them, too. I learned to love people suffering under the fact > that not everyone has the social conditioning necessary to make > their own world a good place to be. I learned to love people > involved in petty crime, in joy riding stolen cars, hanging around > shopping malls waiting for their life to pass by. > Those people know nothing of rationality. They have nowhere to > learn it. Most of them know only the social restraints placed on > them by a society that *will* punish them if they go too far. And > some of them exist in gray zones outside any control except their > own tightly managed economy of favours taken and favours granted. > It makes me angry. It made me despise those previous friends > who could do nothing but laugh at my tales from the intestines > of society. It makes me despise people who habitually see right > through junkies, alkies and other of the less wholesome byproducts > of society. Because I see them, and it pains me so. Seeing a > girl whose glazed eyes spell out H-E-R-O-I-N sitting in a > hamburger bar among "normal" people who ignore her condition with > the ease of a butcher chopping meat: It pains me. > So, yes, I want to destroy history. Or rather, I want to deny > history's self-proclaimed right to tie me down, to bore me with > consensus and to make tomorrow just like yesterday. I want to > *take* the right to change something, because that right will never > be given freely. Can aesthetics even exist without war? Can > love be given without pain, can joy be known without sorrow? > Dammit, can I ever be well without being sick? Me and gko had a similiar revelation and discussion following the first few responses to our proposal. Things seem so far out of reach, and in a shit hole. Change is difficult, and it seems like nothing we can do will make any difference, especially when people take on an elitest attitude towards their net house. > Yes, I know that the coin flips constantly and that futurism > turns into fascism and anarchism into autocracy and love into > hate. But even if believers are dangerous, you've got to believe > in something. There are some things that simply need to be done, > and there's no pardon, no amnesty to be given. I don't believe > in ideology, but I believe in necessity. If I had to, I'd take up an AK-47 and lay waste in the midst of a revolution. I hope it never comes to this, but as you say, sometimes necessity warrants drastic measures. It all depends on what you believe in. > And I love you too Alan, as I love Greg, as I love Eric, as I love fran, > as I love Daria-the-hidden, as I love spud, as I love Knut, as I love > Elizabeth, as I love bookish, as I love Pip, as I love Dwayne, as I > love Troy, as I loved and love Michael, as I love Chuck, as I love Chris > and as I love the lurkers and as I would like to love myself. > But this is who I am, and this is what I need to do. I'm sitting > here at 04:00, and I shouldn't be here and I don't want to be > anywhere and I'm high on anger and I'm high on hatred and I'm high on > love and I'm high on the need to change. So don't take this wrong, > 'cause this is what I am. And I refuse to read through this post > again, cause I might decide not to send it. > So take it as it is. It's a love letter, straight from my heart. Taken as such.... Adam Mertz n.9 From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 06:19:46 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 06:21:46 +0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Marius Watz Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..316:22.11.94.04.45.22"@uib.no> (message from Adam Mertz on Wed, 21 Dec 1994 22:43:48 -0600) Adam wrote: > First off, let me say that I think that Marius has got his shit > together. I think that if you, Marius, and I had lived in the same Adam, I think you got that in the wrong order. I've got lots of shit, and I'm desperately trying to keep it together. *shrug* As for you and Greg's differences, I must say that I find it a little amusing. But I'd hate to see it into a real flamewar, because believe it or not, you both have something to learn from each other. Point in fact: No, FC is no longer a movement as such, nor is it very cyberpunk. The people you'll find are more than fairly tech literate, but it's no longer that important in itself. It becomes part of you, your life. We feel these wires, and we know that there is flesh on both sides. But the fascination with the wires themselves dwindles while the flesh on the other end becomes more important. There is a reason why the majority here has gone on from cyberpunk onto something less clearly defined but perhaps closer to their very *real* lives. For life is real, whether on the net or off. As for giving FC credit for what the list has contributed to the net, I don't think we really want it. Nor do we deserve it. We've done what we've needed to do, and a lot of projects have come >from it. And not just from FC, either. From Leri, NEXUS, Aleph, >from the myriads of memetic attractors churning away. To take credit for that would be meaningless. You see, the real culture shock here stems from your idea that FC is an easily quantifiable thing, when it most certainly is not. The FAQ is a *thing*, as are all the various mini-FAQs and manifestos and strange texts that have come hurtling out of the vortex. But FC itself remains elusive as long as it's still alive and kicking. And don't underestimate it, not only is FC capable of progress and change, it has already gone through countless iterations of just that. Somewhere along the way, the ideological baggage of cyberpunk got left behind at the spaceport and we've done just as well without it. FC in its current incarnation is not about elitism, quite the opposite. It's about community. And that's precisely why it squirms at the notion of being a movement. We don't want to lead anyone. We don't want to be led. I understand your desire to turn a lot of the stuff on FC into essays, e-zines etc. But the only answer I can give is go ahead, do it. But do it with *your own* work. Create your own community, and make it live. Don't risk falling on crutches. Set up a list, get people to come and talk their fool heads off. Hell, suggest making your own offshore paradise in an old oil tanker , suggest setting up collectives for getting net.access, suggest setting up your own IRC channel with your very own bot. Do it all, but do it *yourself*, for *yourself*. And you're more than welcome to become part of the community. You've already got a pretty clearcut voice, with opinions of your own. Get the lay of the land and then start changing it. But do it subtly and with just *a little* respect. After all, you're in someone else's garden and you gotta earn your stay. marius From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 06:57:15 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 23:56:03 -0600 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Adam Mertz Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.bitnet@KSUVM.KSU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220518.XAA09239@grunt.ksu.ksu.edu> from "Marius Watz" at Dec 22, 94 06:21:46 am > Adam wrote: > > First off, let me say that I think that Marius has got his shit > > together. I think that if you, Marius, and I had lived in the same > Adam, I think you got that in the wrong order. I've got lots of shit, > and I'm desperately trying to keep it together. *shrug* That's cool... I am too, but i think that what you have to say has a lot of meaning. > As for you and Greg's differences, I must say that I find it a > little amusing. But I'd hate to see it into a real flamewar, because > believe it or not, you both have something to learn from each > other. I am always trying to learn from others... we were just having a disagreement. I feel that now I am getting to the point where I will think on if virtual communities are a benefit or a detriment to the net. > Point in fact: No, FC is no longer a movement as such, nor is it > very cyberpunk. The people you'll find are more than fairly > tech literate, but it's no longer that important in itself. It > becomes part of you, your life. We feel these wires, and we know > that there is flesh on both sides. But the fascination with the > wires themselves dwindles while the flesh on the other end becomes > more important. There is a reason why the majority here has gone > on from cyberpunk onto something less clearly defined but perhaps > closer to their very *real* lives. For life is real, whether on > the net or off. Understood.. in fact, I believe I made this a point in the .neXus. digital thinking document. As for FC being a community and nothing else, then fine.. if that is the consensus for all you subscribers then we can let you go your own merry way. > As for giving FC credit for what the list has contributed to the > net, I don't think we really want it. Nor do we deserve it. We've > done what we've needed to do, and a lot of projects have come > from it. And not just from FC, either. From Leri, NEXUS, Aleph, > from the myriads of memetic attractors churning away. To take > credit for that would be meaningless. I think you are being modest. But then again, from what i see now, maybe not... the list is just that, only a list. > You see, the real culture shock here stems from your idea that > FC is an easily quantifiable thing, when it most certainly is > not. The FAQ is a *thing*, as are all the various mini-FAQs and > manifestos and strange texts that have come hurtling out of > the vortex. But FC itself remains elusive as long as it's still > alive and kicking. And don't underestimate it, not only is FC > capable of progress and change, it has already gone through > countless iterations of just that. Somewhere along the way, > the ideological baggage of cyberpunk got left behind at the > spaceport and we've done just as well without it. Then FC will have nothing to do with the cyberpunk movement... as it stood a few years ago when it was not so hyped up. Fine. Let the media and alt.cyberpunk fuck it all up. > FC in its current incarnation is not about elitism, quite the opposite. > It's about community. And that's precisely why it squirms at the > notion of being a movement. We don't want to lead anyone. We > don't want to be led. You are in a rut then. > I understand your desire to turn a lot of the stuff on FC > into essays, e-zines etc. But the only answer I can give is > go ahead, do it. But do it with *your own* work. Create your > own community, and make it live. Don't risk falling on > crutches. Set up a list, get people to come and talk their > fool heads off. Hell, suggest making your own offshore > paradise in an old oil tanker , suggest setting up > collectives for getting net.access, suggest setting up your > own IRC channel with your very own bot. Do it all, but do it > *yourself*, for *yourself*. We have been doing it ourselves... and NO, we are not using FC as a crutch. Get that through your head. Anything we would do with FC would be .neXus. AND FC. Like I said: "Also it is that sort, "It's my house, so fuck you attitude" that is so common on the net that is ruining everything. That attitude is why people like Andy have nothing to do with this bullshit. " Not speaking for Andy or anything, but its just a hunch... We are doing this so that everyone can get involved with doing something about change. We came to YOU with nothing but hard work in mind. We are not trying to make FC our list.. we are not trying to use the list as a front. We wanted a collaboration. Something along the lines like: The Future Culture e-zine... organized by .neXus. , or Future Culture page on our website... because our website is developing much faster than anything your mail list could do alone. Just something lame yet productive like that. > And you're more than welcome to become part of the community. > You've already got a pretty clearcut voice, with opinions of > your own. Get the lay of the land and then start changing it. > But do it subtly and with just *a little* respect. After all, > you're in someone else's garden and you gotta earn your > stay. > marius Will do. Adam Mertz n.9 From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 07:17:37 1994 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:59:44 -0800 Reply-To: Shawn Wilbur Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Shawn Wilbur Subject: Re: bad craziness Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220437.XAA24176@falcon.bgsu.edu> On Wed, 21 Dec 1994, Alan Sondheim wrote: > the hardest thing in the world is not to believe > agreed, my friend, and so we ask: to what end this exhausting unbelief? is it only so that we will not fall into the phallic or the fascist? perhaps the hardest thing is to know that one believes (must finally believe) and then not play the stormtrooper. clearly, we can be as violent in our resistance to true belief as any (positive) ideologue. perhaps the hardest thing is to make a space for what is so damned intimate and suspect about all of this. [new mail in. alan asks about suspect cultural models, about the violence of FC, about avant gardes...] it's all so (fucking) suspect, isn't it? why should community be any more reassuring to us than movement? both are soaked in all that we might want to escape - and escape is so much of it. we're fleeing bodies, fleeing our pasts as 'clueless newbies', fleeing the horrors of a history that seems bound and determined to repeat itself. or we're talking about fleeing, and we run right down the throat of the beast. welcome home. the strangest thing about this 'violation' of FC is that we did it to ourselves. an offer was made, and made badly i think. more than that, it was an offer that we could refuse. lots of folks have already pointed out how nonsensical the offer was in the first place. but it wasn't an attack. what really threatened our collective happiness here was that we had to trot out our attitudes and intolerances. Adam, you have a lot to learn about FC. greg did not, i think, intend to suggest that this was a sleepy village, but you went ahead and made the mistake of assuming that there is nothing going on here - barring some historical significance. hehe. wrong, i think, as an evening like this proves. i doubt that anyone is prepared to say exactly what this thing is that is happening around us. [yikes! i have new mail from Andy Hawks... this is definitely some sort of temporal disturbance.] but here we are, and here is the point that all us modernangels seem compelled to dance upon - what can we contain here in FC? can we pretend that we have moved beyond a dynamic of introjection and abjection, and essentially phallic economy. we have more slack these days, except when somebody tries to fence us in, but aren't most of our worries that we'll get the wrong fence? i guess what's driving me tonight is the fact that i'm a believer of a strange sort. i believe in the future, in love, in the possibility of continuing on despite the fact that the things i believe in are (perhaps hopelessly) contaminated by all that i would like to wish away. the hardest thing (for me) is to love despite it all, to dance (or write) with and through my anger and violence, rather than striking with my body (or my words). i'm not sure how different my 'believe' is from alan's 'not to believe.' [some of you may remember the 'Futurist Synthesis: Energy + Fear' that i posted here earlier this year. we didn't talk about it. i made no attempt to contextualize it. but it was, at least in part, about dealing with a belief in the future, and with how you let the future come to you (be with you, now). maybe i should dig it up...] strange. this has been an exhausting and exhilerating FCday. i have laughed and gnashed my teeth. is it only my hopeless avant garde sensibilities (pomomorecontingentthanthouwhassamattadonchareadbataille) that makes that a pleasurable mix? -shawn From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 07:21:19 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:19:50 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Eric Cook Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: On Wed, 21 Dec 1994, Adam Mertz wrote: > After reading everyone's response thus far, I now have a better > understanding of what the situation is. This response will probably be > rather long... as it will be an attempt to explain our viewpoint and > add commentary, and also give you an idea of who I am and introduce > myself as best as I can. > > I knew what the FAQ said, and if your list had anything to do > with what the FAQ is all about then we would not have a > misinterpretation of definitions and what not. Maybe then, you should > go about rewriting the FAQ yourself. As far as I know, Andy was a > mastermind in his time of writing it. He put a lot of effort into > it, something that you wouldn't have an ounce of motivation or care in > the world to try and accomplish since you have nothing to do > with any sort of movement or whatever... all you'd assume to do is sit > around on your ass and gab by e-mail about ideas, while doing nothing > about those ideas. Adam, you're making a lot of assumptions about Greg and the rest of the list here. Maintaining the FAQ has not been a priority. It is, as others have pointed out, more a historical document than a current "how-to" guide. This is why, for example, no one took it upon themselves to post it regularly to USENET anymore, as Andy did when it was "current". > Also it is that sort, "It's my house, so fuck you attitude" that is > so common on the net that is ruining everything. That attitude is why > people like Andy have nothing to do with this bullshit. At the same time, this _is_ our house, and you've come up to us trying to convince us that our aluminum siding is out-of-date and unfashionble. As far as Andy goes...if you weren't here when he was, I wouldn't go attributing intentions to him. In fact, I could care less about Andy Hawks at this point in time. He gave us the big finger when he tried to blow the house down, for reasons that while I understood as much as I could, seemed self-centered, and partial created by people trying to blow him into a larger-than-life figure. [Wonderful net-sync{wink} that mail from ahawks shows up in my inbox right as I'm writing it. What did you say in the message Shawn?] > If you wanna keep FC a sleep Michigan village than so be it. I thought > FC was cyberpunk driven and was enforcing a movement of sorts. But I > guess that obviously is not the case here with Greg. Well, yeah Adam...That's the point. We're not cyberpunk-driven, and we're not enforcing a movement of sorts. Haven't been for a long time. If that means that we're worthless in your eyes, so be it. That is _your_ opinion. We don't think so, or we would have all unsubbed en masse long ago. This is what we keep saying, in so many words, Greg, Marius, myself and others, in different ways. > You can understand why I have taken an attitude with you since I think > that cyberpunk and future culture should be a movement, and not a > sleepy little Michagan village. How fucking lame. But we _aren't_ a movement. You want a movement, go make one. We're not it. And again, if we agreed with your assessment of "lameness", we'd _be_ a movement, no? > NEW MINDS, FRESH NEW IDEAS! Yeah, and that's great. Of course, new minds and fresh new ideas are not always immediately assimilated or agreed with. You wind up with arguements and misunderstandings. Like now, for instance. > That is just it... it sounds to me that the FC is worn out. If you > cannot handle trying to get new people to join your discussions then > you are an elitest. Again, our difference here is the movement vs. > community question. If FC wanted to contribute to the original > cyberpunk, future culture attitude, then they would want to get the > word out to as many enthusiasts and newcomers as possible so that > better and better ideas can be discussed. Quit being an elitest, Greg. Again, you are making a lot of assumptions about Greg and the list as a whole. (Which are, of course, by no means the same thing -- Hi Greg!) And again, I'm not sure if you are acknowledgeing the repeated point: FC is no longer on the "original cyberpunk" tip. Some people on the list are. Some are not. By not advertising, we're being elitest? Like you say, the "difference here is the movement vs. community question." > Also, FC does not *just* have to be a mailing list. You guys can > spread to irc in full again. The www should be taken and used to its > maximum extent to present the info you guys discuss. It could be a > huge resource that we all contribute to. Your guys' posts to the list > could be turned into essays. From essays we could have our own e-zine. > The ideas are endless if you just put your "heart and minds" to it. > All you have to do is say, "Yeah, cool... take our e-mail, and our > ideas, out it to WWW and text, ftp sites, etc. Label it FC (by > permission) and that is propaganda for the list and good info all in > one shot. Again, "movement vs. community". A movement is (ideally) a cohesive force. A community is a group of individuals. We all do the things you say -- we do e-zines, we do web pages, we do ftp sites, we write books, articles, we make music, we make art, we put our "heart and minds" into it. It just doesn't have some "FC-movement-approved" .gif logo at the top. That is, again, not the purpose of the list. > Some of you are afraid to do anything but talk and discuss > and be a community... You say this as if it's a bad thing. It's not. > I also have seen some of you that are willing to > make some changes. We do not intend to manage it all, like I said, we > just want a collaboration. If we just go and start our own mailing > list like you suggest we would just be adding more factions to the > net, less diversity, and less cooperation. More lists == more factions == less diversity? I don't follow. You speak of factions as if we would all be competing. Is FC fighting for "marketshare" with NEXUS (dwayne, et al.), Cybermind, etc? More than enough room for another kid on the block. People do different things with themselves. When one home is less important than another, they focus more on the important one. When .rez got more enthused about the NEXUS project, he posted less here. His presence was missed, but he was working on something that was important to him, so.. I guess I don't understand the overwhelming need to "revamp", "revitalize", or "redo" FC. Especially by trying to have us go _back_ to do this. You imply that by being happy that we've changed over the years, and are no longer what we started as, we're lame navel-gazers that aren't doing anything worth a pile of spit. That's not the case. We're just not doing what _you_ think is worthwhile. We've changed, and so we're lame? No. I'm sorry if we're not what you thought we were, Adam. But, ah.. we're not. All that aside, best of luck to your site and everything. --Eric Cook ecook@mail.msen.com > I will remain on the list regardless of what you decide... 8^) HA! As well you should. And, if people disagree with what you say, they will say so, regardless of what you decide. :) And, incidentally, I am sitting in a sleepy Michigan village as I write this. So go figure. From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 07:38:19 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:37:09 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: bad craziness Comments: To: Shawn Wilbur Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220619.AA18021@panix2.panix.com> resistance to belief is not likely to lead to intolerance; obviously one believes (i.e. in disbelief at the least) but self-criticality is the hardest thing to come by by the way, I don't feel for myself that I'm fleeing anything whatsoever in terms of community here, that flight has anything to do with it. community seems positive to me, and for me at least isn't covering or suturing the stains of some adulterated past nor am I arguing against energy by the way and if you were here with me you would clearly see that but flight violence belief movement revolution whatever makes victims what I love about FC is that it _is_ the future, working out communality and community, and I've yet to see the victims but then I don't believe alan From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 08:09:46 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:08:33 -0600 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Adam Mertz Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220620.AAA10118@grunt.ksu.ksu.edu> from "Eric Cook" at Dec 22, 94 01:19:50 am > On Wed, 21 Dec 1994, Adam Mertz wrote: > > After reading everyone's response thus far, I now have a better > > understanding of what the situation is. This response will probably be > > rather long... as it will be an attempt to explain our viewpoint and > > add commentary, and also give you an idea of who I am and introduce > > myself as best as I can. > > > > I knew what the FAQ said, and if your list had anything to do > > with what the FAQ is all about then we would not have a > > misinterpretation of definitions and what not. Maybe then, you should > > go about rewriting the FAQ yourself. As far as I know, Andy was a > > mastermind in his time of writing it. He put a lot of effort into > > it, something that you wouldn't have an ounce of motivation or care in > > the world to try and accomplish since you have nothing to do > > with any sort of movement or whatever... all you'd assume to do is sit > > around on your ass and gab by e-mail about ideas, while doing nothing > > about those ideas. > Adam, you're making a lot of assumptions about Greg and the rest of the list > here. Maintaining the FAQ has not been a priority. It is, as others > have pointed out, more a historical document than a current "how-to" guide. > This is why, for example, no one took it upon themselves to post it > regularly to USENET anymore, as Andy did when it was "current". No, just Greg. > > Also it is that sort, "It's my house, so fuck you attitude" that is > > so common on the net that is ruining everything. That attitude is why > > people like Andy have nothing to do with this bullshit. > At the same time, this _is_ our house, and you've come up to us trying to > convince us that our aluminum siding is out-of-date and unfashionble. Never said that it was unfashionable... just that the FAQ was out of date. Which brings me to the point that someone on the list should write a Future Culture Mail List FAQ. From the responses it is quite clear (thank you everybody) that the FAQ has almost nothing to do with the list. So do something about it. Put at the top of the FAQ... a history book on FC, or something. > As far as Andy goes...if you weren't here when he was, I wouldn't go > attributing intentions to him. In fact, I could care less about Andy > Hawks at this point in time. He gave us the big finger when he tried to > blow the house down, for reasons that while I understood as much as I could, > seemed self-centered, and partial created by people trying to blow him > into a larger-than-life figure. > [Wonderful net-sync{wink} that mail from ahawks shows up in my inbox right > as I'm writing it. What did you say in the message Shawn?] That's fine. > > If you wanna keep FC a sleep Michigan village than so be it. I thought > > FC was cyberpunk driven and was enforcing a movement of sorts. But I > > guess that obviously is not the case here with Greg. > Well, yeah Adam...That's the point. We're not cyberpunk-driven, and > we're not enforcing a movement of sorts. Haven't been for a long time. > If that means that we're worthless in your eyes, so be it. That is _your_ > opinion. We don't think so, or we would have all unsubbed en masse long ago. > This is what we keep saying, in so many words, Greg, Marius, myself and > others, in different ways. Thats fine then... all FC is is a mail list with people on it sharing thoughts. Nothing more nothing else. BTW, I can feel the looking down the nose bit on the word, "cyberpunk." Like I have already said, I hate the prefix cyber now. I feel more close to what cyberpunk was way back when..., > > You can understand why I have taken an attitude with you since I think > > that cyberpunk and future culture should be a movement, and not a > > sleepy little Michagan village. How fucking lame. > But we _aren't_ a movement. You want a movement, go make one. We're not it. > And again, if we agreed with your assessment of "lameness", we'd _be_ a > movement, no? Not exactly... We offered new ideas that entailed a movement... if FC has nothing to do with this then fine. Do NOTHING. Me.. I feel that it is important to be an activist of sorts. We thought people on the FC would be the same sort of individuals... Hey... we were wrong! > > NEW MINDS, FRESH NEW IDEAS! > Yeah, and that's great. Of course, new minds and fresh new ideas are not > always immediately assimilated or agreed with. You wind up with arguements > and misunderstandings. Like now, for instance. If you know this than why do you resist? If you know new ideas should be taken into respect, then why retaliate so intensely? > > That is just it... it sounds to me that the FC is worn out. If you > > cannot handle trying to get new people to join your discussions then > > you are an elitest. Again, our difference here is the movement vs. > > community question. If FC wanted to contribute to the original > > cyberpunk, future culture attitude, then they would want to get the > > word out to as many enthusiasts and newcomers as possible so that > > better and better ideas can be discussed. Quit being an elitest, Greg. > Again, you are making a lot of assumptions about Greg and the list as a > whole. (Which are, of course, by no means the same thing -- Hi Greg!) > And again, I'm not sure if you are acknowledgeing the repeated point: > FC is no longer on the "original cyberpunk" tip. Some people on the list > are. Some are not. By not advertising, we're being elitest? > Like you say, the "difference here is the movement vs. community question." Those who still feel the cyberpunk movement is alive (not the media version mind you) then do something rather than e-mailing ideas... lets get some infocracking shit done. Who's with me? >8| > > Also, FC does not *just* have to be a mailing list. You guys can > > spread to irc in full again. The www should be taken and used to its > > maximum extent to present the info you guys discuss. It could be a > > huge resource that we all contribute to. Your guys' posts to the list > > could be turned into essays. From essays we could have our own e-zine. > > The ideas are endless if you just put your "heart and minds" to it. > > All you have to do is say, "Yeah, cool... take our e-mail, and our > > ideas, out it to WWW and text, ftp sites, etc. Label it FC (by > > permission) and that is propaganda for the list and good info all in > > one shot. > Again, "movement vs. community". A movement is (ideally) a cohesive > force. A community is a group of individuals. > We all do the things you say -- we do e-zines, we do web pages, we do ftp > sites, we write books, articles, we make music, we make art, we put our > "heart and minds" into it. That's great to hear... but its all personal, only done for yourself. If you collectively worked with everyone else... then you could get a lot more done. That is what is great about the net.... that is why we chose neXus as a name... "neXus is a series of interconnected minds whos purpose is to enjoy the wide breadth of possibilities that the net may hold." But you dont get that do you... you can't understand that by way of the net you could have very easily cooperated with us and started something great. But like you said, "We dont want that." All you wanna do is gab and do your own thing. > It just doesn't have some "FC-movement-approved" .gif logo at the top. > That is, again, not the purpose of the list. We do not need your permission to assimilate all the info I could have gained from this list, or the FAQ. We just thought it would have been nice if the FC and .neXus. could have expanded collectively on ideas and information. Hey Eric, that isnt what its all about. I'm not worried about FC approved. We were doing this with you guys with nothing but good will and consideration. Of course, rejection is fine. > > Some of you are afraid to do anything but talk and discuss > > and be a community... > You say this as if it's a bad thing. It's not. Nothing bad about sitting around and talking... We do it all the time. I'm saying that by-way-of-net you are unwilling to do anything with anyone else outside of FC, unless it was a personal venture... which is what its going to be for anyone else on the FC list who would actually like to work with us. > > I also have seen some of you that are willing to > > make some changes. We do not intend to manage it all, like I said, we > > just want a collaboration. If we just go and start our own mailing > > list like you suggest we would just be adding more factions to the > > net, less diversity, and less cooperation. > More lists == more factions == less diversity? I don't follow. > You speak of factions as if we would all be competing. Is FC fighting for > "marketshare" with NEXUS (dwayne, et al.), Cybermind, etc? More than enough > room for another kid on the block. When we are all doing our own thing we loose ourselves in the mess. More factions == less cooperation for sure, less diversity? hmmm, I think I meant that there would be less diversity in ways of cooperation. FC is just and only the FC, .neXus. is just and only the .neXus., etc. Everyone doing their own thing, everyone doing everything for themselves. The FC list would not, in any shape or form, loose its identity by cooperating with us! I REPEAT: THE FC LIST WOULD NOT, IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM, LOOSE ITS IDENTITY BY COOPERATING WITH US. So what's your fear and rejection for? > People do different things with themselves. When one home is less important > than another, they focus more on the important one. When .rez got more > enthused about the NEXUS project, he posted less here. His presence was > missed, but he was working on something that was important to him, so.. > I guess I don't understand the overwhelming need to "revamp", > "revitalize", or "redo" FC. Especially by trying to have us go _back_ to > do this. There is none.. just if you had some beliefs that were getting lost in the bungled up factioned internet, then we were offering a means of unifying. > You imply that by being happy that we've changed over the years, and are > no longer what we started as, we're lame navel-gazers that aren't doing > anything worth a pile of spit. That's not the case. We're just not doing > what _you_ think is worthwhile. We've changed, and so we're lame? No. That's fine. You are improving *yourselve* by only sharing with *yourselves*. > I'm sorry if we're not what you thought we were, Adam. > But, ah.. > we're not. Once again, I have no problem with this. > All that aside, best of luck to your site and everything. > --Eric Cook > ecook@mail.msen.com Thank you, very much... and I mean that. > > I will remain on the list regardless of what you decide... 8^) HA! > As well you should. And, if people disagree with what you say, they will > say so, regardless of what you decide. :) Cool. > And, incidentally, I am sitting in a sleepy Michigan village as I write this. > So go figure. I knew it... I could go on about small town mentality, since I grew up in one, but I'll save it for another essay. If you, Eric, enjoy living in a small sleepy village, than that tells me a hell of a lot why you'd feel more comfortable with sticking to the list and only the list. This is not meant to be a slam at all, I just know what the mentality is. I am not of that mentality. Adam Mertz n.9 From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 09:00:00 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 18:58:45 +1100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Dwayne Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220519.QAA24913@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Marius Watz" at Dec 22, 94 06:21:46 am I peeled a grape, and found that Marius Watz had written upon it: : : And you're more than welcome to become part of the community. : You've already got a pretty clearcut voice, with opinions of : your own. Get the lay of the land and then start changing it. : But do it subtly and with just *a little* respect. After all, : you're in someone else's garden and you gotta earn your : stay. Shit I hate it when I go to write something and as I read the next message I discover that it's what I wanted to say, *and* it's said better than I was going to say it. Hmm. Humm. Bugger. :-) Thanks Marius, "rawry!" <------- authentic frontier gibberish Dwayne. -------> hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 08:52:01 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 02:50:50 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Eric Cook Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Adam Mertz wrote: [A lot of stuff, and..] > If you know new ideas should > be taken into respect, then why retaliate so intensely? I am not retaliating intensely. I would be much more rude then. I was trying to clarify what I saw as mis-interpretations. > But you dont get that do you... you can't understand that by way of > the net you could have very easily cooperated with us and started > something great. But like you said, "We dont want that." All you wanna > do is gab and do your own thing. I didn't say, "we don't want that". I said, "we aren't that". There's a fundamental difference. And... > Hey Eric, that isnt what its all about. I'm not worried about FC > approved. We were doing this with you guys with nothing but good will > and consideration. Of course, rejection is fine. Your intent of good will and consideration is appreciated. The manner in which you approached it leaves something to be desired. > THE FC LIST WOULD NOT, IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM, LOOSE ITS IDENTITY BY > COOPERATING WITH US. I would submit, that yes, in the manner in which it was presented to us, we would lose our current identity. If we were presented as something that we were not, and grandly publicized as such, the influx of people looking for something that we are not would cause us to lose our identity. > That's fine. You are improving *yourselve* by only sharing with > *yourselves*. We are not just sharing with ourselves. You have no idea what we do or do not do, individually, or collectively. > > And, incidentally,I am sitting in a sleepy Michigan village as I write this. > > So go figure. > > I knew it... I could go on about small town mentality, since I grew > up in one, but I'll save it for another essay. If you, Eric, enjoy > living in a small sleepy village, than that tells me a hell of a lot > why you'd feel more comfortable with sticking to the list and only the > list. This is not meant to be a slam at all, I just know what the > mentality is. I am not of that mentality. You see Adam, this is the sort of thing that makes it so hard to take you seriously. You insult and claim not to be insulting. You see things from one perspective, yours, without considering that A) Others may feel differently, B) Others' points of view and agendas may be equally valid to them as yours is to you, and C) You might be wrong. You make unwarranted assumptions, and hold them up as fact. Greg disagrees with you, so rather than attempting to persuade him, you tell him "Fuck You". You know _nothing_ about me whatsoever, and yet you accuse me of having a "small-town mentality", based on a throw-away line at the end of letter, and the fact that I disagreed with you. You know _nothing_ about this list, what we do, who we are, and yet you come in like gangbusters, and when it turns out not to be the place you thought it was, without attempting to learn what it _is_, you dismiss and insult it. I would say that it is _you_ that do not "get it". --Eric Cook ecook@mail.msen.com From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 08:52:01 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 02:50:50 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Eric Cook Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Adam Mertz wrote: [A lot of stuff, and..] > If you know new ideas should > be taken into respect, then why retaliate so intensely? I am not retaliating intensely. I would be much more rude then. I was trying to clarify what I saw as mis-interpretations. > But you dont get that do you... you can't understand that by way of > the net you could have very easily cooperated with us and started > something great. But like you said, "We dont want that." All you wanna > do is gab and do your own thing. I didn't say, "we don't want that". I said, "we aren't that". There's a fundamental difference. And... > Hey Eric, that isnt what its all about. I'm not worried about FC > approved. We were doing this with you guys with nothing but good will > and consideration. Of course, rejection is fine. Your intent of good will and consideration is appreciated. The manner in which you approached it leaves something to be desired. > THE FC LIST WOULD NOT, IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM, LOOSE ITS IDENTITY BY > COOPERATING WITH US. I would submit, that yes, in the manner in which it was presented to us, we would lose our current identity. If we were presented as something that we were not, and grandly publicized as such, the influx of people looking for something that we are not would cause us to lose our identity. > That's fine. You are improving *yourselve* by only sharing with > *yourselves*. We are not just sharing with ourselves. You have no idea what we do or do not do, individually, or collectively. > > And, incidentally,I am sitting in a sleepy Michigan village as I write this. > > So go figure. > > I knew it... I could go on about small town mentality, since I grew > up in one, but I'll save it for another essay. If you, Eric, enjoy > living in a small sleepy village, than that tells me a hell of a lot > why you'd feel more comfortable with sticking to the list and only the > list. This is not meant to be a slam at all, I just know what the > mentality is. I am not of that mentality. You see Adam, this is the sort of thing that makes it so hard to take you seriously. You insult and claim not to be insulting. You see things from one perspective, yours, without considering that A) Others may feel differently, B) Others' points of view and agendas may be equally valid to them as yours is to you, and C) You might be wrong. You make unwarranted assumptions, and hold them up as fact. Greg disagrees with you, so rather than attempting to persuade him, you tell him "Fuck You". You know _nothing_ about me whatsoever, and yet you accuse me of having a "small-town mentality", based on a throw-away line at the end of letter, and the fact that I disagreed with you. You know _nothing_ about this list, what we do, who we are, and yet you come in like gangbusters, and when it turns out not to be the place you thought it was, without attempting to learn what it _is_, you dismiss and insult it. I would say that it is _you_ that do not "get it". --Eric Cook ecook@mail.msen.com From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 08:55:31 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:54:14 -0600 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: ".gko." Subject: Last comments Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> A few people are still confused with some intentions of our offer. I also beleive that the majority of the people on the list have not visted our site, because there has been waaay too much mis-information floating around. I'll try to clearify a few things. After this - we will have said what we've had to say. It's whatever you chose. First ----- 1) WE ARE NOT people who use the term cyberpunk superficialy. We don't call ourselves cyberpunks because we wear cammo shorts, or listen to NIN. So you may, at any time, drop the whole analogy with alt.cyberpunk. Although I have seen a few good things come from alt.cyberpunk, the majority of it is wasted bandwith. The classifications and use of buzz-words that have been made in many of the replies are what we are trying to dispose of. Save it for Mtv. 2) WE ARE NOT \/\/arez d00ds, hackers, crackers, or phreaks. We specifically say on our site: "We do not claim to be hackers, phreaks, pirates, traitors, etc. We only believe that an alternative to making certain info/ideas illegal as a means to keep people from doing bad things - is make information free, and educate people how to handle free information responsibly. Please think and act responsibly. Don't get cockey, don't get pushy. There is always gonna be someone out there that can kick your ass. Remember that. Keep the net connected - .gKo." We ARE, however, very high tech oriented. So you will find information about h/p/etc...it's a hobby of mine; however, I am not impressed with the elitist veiws of most of the h/p/w groups, so I/we chose not to be a part of them. 3) WE ARE NOT Getting any money, rewards, or political gain from our offer. We do what we do for the general community. Appreciation has been our only paycheck, but its has been good enough and plentiful enough to keep us going. COMMENTS CONCERNING: -------------------- Our numbers: There are five people on the home page. There are five people that write the html. We find it confusing enough to have 5 different people changing html on one document to have any more. There are *many* of us that share the same veiws but we don't seclude ourselves as a group. We're not into the net-cliques. So we don't have pages of links to people who contribute so that they may "belong" to something. I'd be surprised if there we're more than 5 people doing your *main* HTML page. Ourselves: We are by no means new to the net. Do not treat us as such. We are by no means new to the underground, cyberpunk, technology, or future culture. Please be polite enough not to judge us before you know who we are. Our longevity: We've had our html site up for a year and a half. A few people have doubted that because they "haven't seen us". To that I would respond that the net is a big place and that any person who thinks that the intenet is bounded by the places that s/he has visited, is a fool. Those of you who have been paying attention to internet traffic would know that the WWW has has become the third largest form of information exchange (just behind telnet and ftp). I could see how some could miss our web site....but we have had #neXus up on IRC around the clock, for the past four months. We used to just create it from time to time... but if you've been on IRC lateley - it's been there. Our affiliation with the list: Speaking for mostly myself, but also a few others, I try to avoid mailing lists: they are archaic, slow, and are non-selective. I've joined mailing lists in the past and have found them to be tedious. Anybody who has been around better forms of communication will tell you the same. They have their benifits in that all you need is a mailbox, but we've decided to move beyond that for those who would like to cominicate on a higher level. We initially started off ourselves doing mail transfer and filtered program control, but have out-grown mail processing. Our knowlege of what FC is: Beleive me...both Adam and I spent a *lot* of time going through the information about FC. However, if the information you have available in the FAQ and on your WWW sites do not represent what you do/think/beleive ... then you're right, we don't know what you're about. But what was the point in that? I take offense from the comments made about *our* manifesto if your FAQ doesn't even have anything to do with what you are. I would even offer the reverse, saying that a few replies have been formed before knowing what we are and without reading anything on our site. Our intentions: For the most part, we we're hoping that FC people would be glad that there was still someone out there wanting to help create. With no disrespect intended, I think mailing lists are good in the idea that they provoke a more diverve range of thinking by talking with others, but then what? What do you do with that information? What have you done? How has it helped? Between the five of us that work on the WWW site as often as possible, we have offered a large variety of information to ourselves and others. WE CREATE. We've tried to filter & post the most interesting information we have found, we write a *lot* of original text, we create *all* our own graphics, and (although we do have a specific area for links) we are *not* just another web page with links to the good. Not an IRC channel that sits around wondering "Am I a Cyberpunks?". Why FC: We came to FC because we have (or thought we had) common interests. We decided to make a few changes on our site and considered the whole idea of making a *big* change. We considered going a step further and forming a more consolidated group of people with similar interests rather than decentralizing common ground. -------------- FINAL OPINIONS -------------- ** A lot of respect goes to Andy and any of the originals with FC FAQ, ** a lot of work and a lot of time, we know - we've done it. It's real ** easy to get worn out over that shit. We have offered to pick up where ** he had left off and try to keep it current until we wear out. It is ** a VERY good piece of cultural literature...we don't want it to be swept ** under the rug. We'd like to see it continued. I think it's ironic that you have *given* us permission to start our own community. I also find it ironic that you tell us not to use your mailing list as a crutch! What!? We don't need a _mailing list_ to support us. I think that's rather egotistical presumption since few of you are the ones who started FC. AND, last of all, I'm very depressed to find that a few people on FC have fallen into the clique games. It's sickening and no better than the "old conservative white men" that form country clubs. I have no problems with grouping among peers...but when you have to pee on every byte that passes through your realm, just so you can claim that something is *yours*...that's just fuckin' sad. Fixer made a good point that some of you will miss due to your ego. Maybe the whole proposition should have gone directly to Andy rather than the list. We didn't realize that this would be received with the amout of hostility that it has. I appoligize for talking so much... But thank you for listening. gko End of Line From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 08:55:31 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 01:54:14 -0600 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: ".gko." Subject: Last comments Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> A few people are still confused with some intentions of our offer. I also beleive that the majority of the people on the list have not visted our site, because there has been waaay too much mis-information floating around. I'll try to clearify a few things. After this - we will have said what we've had to say. It's whatever you chose. First ----- 1) WE ARE NOT people who use the term cyberpunk superficialy. We don't call ourselves cyberpunks because we wear cammo shorts, or listen to NIN. So you may, at any time, drop the whole analogy with alt.cyberpunk. Although I have seen a few good things come from alt.cyberpunk, the majority of it is wasted bandwith. The classifications and use of buzz-words that have been made in many of the replies are what we are trying to dispose of. Save it for Mtv. 2) WE ARE NOT \/\/arez d00ds, hackers, crackers, or phreaks. We specifically say on our site: "We do not claim to be hackers, phreaks, pirates, traitors, etc. We only believe that an alternative to making certain info/ideas illegal as a means to keep people from doing bad things - is make information free, and educate people how to handle free information responsibly. Please think and act responsibly. Don't get cockey, don't get pushy. There is always gonna be someone out there that can kick your ass. Remember that. Keep the net connected - .gKo." We ARE, however, very high tech oriented. So you will find information about h/p/etc...it's a hobby of mine; however, I am not impressed with the elitist veiws of most of the h/p/w groups, so I/we chose not to be a part of them. 3) WE ARE NOT Getting any money, rewards, or political gain from our offer. We do what we do for the general community. Appreciation has been our only paycheck, but its has been good enough and plentiful enough to keep us going. COMMENTS CONCERNING: -------------------- Our numbers: There are five people on the home page. There are five people that write the html. We find it confusing enough to have 5 different people changing html on one document to have any more. There are *many* of us that share the same veiws but we don't seclude ourselves as a group. We're not into the net-cliques. So we don't have pages of links to people who contribute so that they may "belong" to something. I'd be surprised if there we're more than 5 people doing your *main* HTML page. Ourselves: We are by no means new to the net. Do not treat us as such. We are by no means new to the underground, cyberpunk, technology, or future culture. Please be polite enough not to judge us before you know who we are. Our longevity: We've had our html site up for a year and a half. A few people have doubted that because they "haven't seen us". To that I would respond that the net is a big place and that any person who thinks that the intenet is bounded by the places that s/he has visited, is a fool. Those of you who have been paying attention to internet traffic would know that the WWW has has become the third largest form of information exchange (just behind telnet and ftp). I could see how some could miss our web site....but we have had #neXus up on IRC around the clock, for the past four months. We used to just create it from time to time... but if you've been on IRC lateley - it's been there. Our affiliation with the list: Speaking for mostly myself, but also a few others, I try to avoid mailing lists: they are archaic, slow, and are non-selective. I've joined mailing lists in the past and have found them to be tedious. Anybody who has been around better forms of communication will tell you the same. They have their benifits in that all you need is a mailbox, but we've decided to move beyond that for those who would like to cominicate on a higher level. We initially started off ourselves doing mail transfer and filtered program control, but have out-grown mail processing. Our knowlege of what FC is: Beleive me...both Adam and I spent a *lot* of time going through the information about FC. However, if the information you have available in the FAQ and on your WWW sites do not represent what you do/think/beleive ... then you're right, we don't know what you're about. But what was the point in that? I take offense from the comments made about *our* manifesto if your FAQ doesn't even have anything to do with what you are. I would even offer the reverse, saying that a few replies have been formed before knowing what we are and without reading anything on our site. Our intentions: For the most part, we we're hoping that FC people would be glad that there was still someone out there wanting to help create. With no disrespect intended, I think mailing lists are good in the idea that they provoke a more diverve range of thinking by talking with others, but then what? What do you do with that information? What have you done? How has it helped? Between the five of us that work on the WWW site as often as possible, we have offered a large variety of information to ourselves and others. WE CREATE. We've tried to filter & post the most interesting information we have found, we write a *lot* of original text, we create *all* our own graphics, and (although we do have a specific area for links) we are *not* just another web page with links to the good. Not an IRC channel that sits around wondering "Am I a Cyberpunks?". Why FC: We came to FC because we have (or thought we had) common interests. We decided to make a few changes on our site and considered the whole idea of making a *big* change. We considered going a step further and forming a more consolidated group of people with similar interests rather than decentralizing common ground. -------------- FINAL OPINIONS -------------- ** A lot of respect goes to Andy and any of the originals with FC FAQ, ** a lot of work and a lot of time, we know - we've done it. It's real ** easy to get worn out over that shit. We have offered to pick up where ** he had left off and try to keep it current until we wear out. It is ** a VERY good piece of cultural literature...we don't want it to be swept ** under the rug. We'd like to see it continued. I think it's ironic that you have *given* us permission to start our own community. I also find it ironic that you tell us not to use your mailing list as a crutch! What!? We don't need a _mailing list_ to support us. I think that's rather egotistical presumption since few of you are the ones who started FC. AND, last of all, I'm very depressed to find that a few people on FC have fallen into the clique games. It's sickening and no better than the "old conservative white men" that form country clubs. I have no problems with grouping among peers...but when you have to pee on every byte that passes through your realm, just so you can claim that something is *yours*...that's just fuckin' sad. Fixer made a good point that some of you will miss due to your ego. Maybe the whole proposition should have gone directly to Andy rather than the list. We didn't realize that this would be received with the amout of hostility that it has. I appoligize for talking so much... But thank you for listening. gko End of Line From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 08:56:26 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 18:54:47 +1100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Dwayne Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220444.PAA24135@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Adam Mertz" at Dec 21, 94 10:43:48 pm I peeled a grape, and found that Adam Mertz had written upon it: : : > This is interesting - I finally got time to check out the .neXus. WWW : > page and *it's not there*! I get a 404 error - the requested URL : > ~psiber (or ~psiber/nexus.html) was not found on this server. : : The CIS systems here at KSU have been rather touchy as of late, and it : wouldn't suprise me if that had happenned. But I assure you all we : have a site and it contains a rather large amount of info. We are : considering moving to the physics department's SGI if permission is : granted by one of the sys admins there. Well, I've seen the stuff, FWIW. : Hey Greg, im going to be rather blunt. Fuck you. :-) : all you'd assume to do is sit : around on your ass and gab by e-mail about ideas, while doing nothing : about those ideas. Well, fuck, if we're going to have another flame-fest, at least let's have it on-topic :-) : Also it is that sort, "It's my house, so fuck you attitude" that is : so common on the net that is ruining everything. That attitude is why : people like Andy have nothing to do with this bullshit. Ahem. This is the same Andy who decided that FC had run it's race so trashed the subscription list, right? Ah-hah. : If you wanna keep FC a sleep Michigan village than so be it. I thought : FC was cyberpunk driven and was enforcing a movement of sorts. But I : guess that obviously is not the case here with Greg. Ahhh, errr, Adam,. it isn't. It's just us. No movement. Just some people discussing the future and culture and anything else. If you want to bring cyberpunk themes into FC, sure, go for it, start a thread, etc, but we're not all going to en masse march to the cyberpunk war shanty, because, well, we're not cyberpunks. I'm not, at any rate. I'm just me. : You can understand why I have taken an attitude with you since I think : that cyberpunk and future culture should be a movement, and not a : sleepy little Michagan village. How fucking lame. Fuck movements. How fucking boring. Look, before this erupts, all though it probably has already: start discussions. If we all want to be part of the movement, we'll sign up. If we don't, we'll ignore you. FC is a largish list, and we are into all sorts of things, we're not homogenous. Threads: That's what mailing lists are all about. Start a discussion, then maybe you'll know what we're all on about. : I have felt this way after every rave I've been to. In fact, my mouth : is do dry after dancing I feel like it is stuck to my teeth. Yah, and thena few days later your legs remind you that you spent all night dancing a couple of days before :-) : the MW-rave scene here is someplace around the peek of its life span. : If it is on the downside or upside, it is hard to tell. All i know is : that most ravers have been getting an attitude of elitism and its : ruining the scene. Jungle is a direct result of this. Yeah, same here. And they keep throwing *legal* raves! Ack! No strobes! Ack! Cops wandering through! Eeep! Bah, I hope some decent underground raves start soon. : If this is not what you want, then : fine... the only crediting we will do is to FC's inability to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ : progress and change. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ****** NEUTOPIA ALERT!!!! : That is what we are doing now by contacting FC and project NEXUS. I for one will be very wary about getting nexus involved in any "movement", the whole idea behind the nexus meme is to drop sideways and do our own thing, not become part of a movement. Be careful that you don't alienate people by embracing them too quickly. : That is just it... it sounds to me that the FC is worn out. Hey, Adam, piss off. Nobody invited you into out house so you could wipe dogshit on the carpet and tell the hostess she's fat. : If you : cannot handle trying to get new people to join your discussions then : you are an elitest. Okay, here we go again. Go talk to Doctress Neutopia, she's very, *very* much into your kind of thing. What you need to understand, is that if someone comes running in yelling "I HAVE AN IDEA" then we will all say "good! What is it?" But if someone comes running in yelling "I HAVE AN IDEA AND YOU'RE ALL GOING TO AGREE!" then we'll all say "piss off". Just because *you* think somethign is good, doesn't mean that: a) it's good, or b) anyone will listen to you, or even that c) upon listening they will agree it is good. The fact that you have a "movement" may or may not be good. Obviously you thik it is. The fact that some of the people on this list don't agree with you doesn't mean the list as a whole, or even those individuals, is "tired" it just means that we can't be bothered. Understand? If you *do* want us to take part in your grand work, then start some discussion here. Saying "follow me!" and then calling us "lame" when we don't leap to attention isn't going to get you very far. : Again, our difference here is the movement vs. : community question. If FC wanted to contribute to the original : cyberpunk, future culture attitude, then they would want to get the : word out to as many enthusiasts and newcomers as possible so that : better and better ideas can be discussed. Quit being an elitest, Greg. Sod that. I have no interest in changing the world, the world sucks. I'm doing my own thing. The nexus idea is out there, people come across it, but I don't go spamming usenet with the nexus.mini-faq or anything. Movements are tiresome. Communities are what counts. When your 'movement' runs out of puff, like the cyberpunk movement has (doesn't that tell you something), virtual and RL communities will still be going strong. FC's community nature has kept it going long after CP died an overdue and nowhere near as odorous as it deserved death. : Also, FC does not *just* have to be a mailing list. You guys can : spread to irc in full again. #futurec, on undernet. Been running for a while, now. : The www should be taken and used to its : maximum extent to present the info you guys discuss. It could be a : huge resource that we all contribute to. Your guys' posts to the list : could be turned into essays. From essays we could have our own e-zine. Great idea. : The ideas are endless if you just put your "heart and minds" to it. : All you have to do is say, "Yeah, cool... take our e-mail, and our : ideas, out it to WWW and text, ftp sites, etc. Label it FC (by : permission) and that is propaganda for the list and good info all in : one shot. I don't know if you are ever going to be able to have 'our permission' who owns the name? Just do it, you're on the list, you have as much right to do it as, say, I do. I'm not going to stop you. If people join this list and discover it's not how it appeared oto them from the info you put up, that's for them to deal with. : Our group .neXus. is very diverse too for just 5 people. I'm sure the : FC list is just as diverse. Given the size of the list, I'd be suprised if it wasn't a shitload more diverse. : Think of the work we could all get done in : coordination. Out of .neXus. we do have your common CP quirks... like : hackers, phreakers, ravers... but we also have many other interests. : Hell, one of us is a great artist. Another is a Mac user (ugh! I HATE : macs, even though I am buying a Power MAC 8^) ). My point is that we : think that diversity and contribution on such a list as FC would be a : good thing. Some of you are afraid to do anything but talk and discuss : and be a community... I also have seen some of you that are willing to : make some changes. We do not intend to manage it all, like I said, we : just want a collaboration. If we just go and start our own mailing : list like you suggest we would just be adding more factions to the : net, less diversity, and less cooperation. Well, look, I'm all in favour, but I'm also not about to jump on anyone's bandwagon. What a wierd place the world is. Dwayne. -------> hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 09:08:58 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 19:07:26 +1100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Dwayne Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220556.QAA25156@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Adam Mertz" at Dec 21, 94 11:56:03 pm I peeled a grape, and found that Adam Mertz had written upon it: : : I feel that now I am getting to the point where I will : think on if virtual communities are a benefit or a detriment to the : net. I thinik you will find that in 4 or 5 years, virtual communities will be pretty much all there is on the net.... : Understood.. in fact, I believe I made this a point in the .neXus. : digital thinking document. As for FC being a community and nothing : else, then fine.. if that is the consensus for all you subscribers : then we can let you go your own merry way. This "all or nothing" attitude is curious. Why can't we be both? : > Somewhere along the way, : > the ideological baggage of cyberpunk got left behind at the : > spaceport and we've done just as well without it. : : Then FC will have nothing to do with the cyberpunk movement... as it : stood a few years ago when it was not so hyped up. Fine. Let the media : and alt.cyberpunk fuck it all up. So long as they leave us alone, yeah, sure, go for it. Who needs the media? Who needs approval from 'society', when it's much more fun to create your own? : > FC in its current incarnation is not about elitism, quite the opposite. : > It's about community. And that's precisely why it squirms at the : > notion of being a movement. We don't want to lead anyone. We : > don't want to be led. : : You are in a rut then. Not at all. You have evolutionary fervour, and it blinds you to things other than your own. We're doing our thing. The nexus project grew out of FC, and I daresay it will have a far greater impact on the net than anything you will do. So what's the big deal? Why try and co-opt a mailing list? Why not just pop up and say "we are currently doing this, anyone else who is interested, this is how to get involved" etc etc. Siphon off the members, get people involved, create something. Don't expect us to climb aboard the good ship .neXus. and follow the lead of Captain Adam, because we won't. : We have been doing it ourselves... and NO, we are not using FC as a : crutch. Get that through your head. Anything we would do with FC would : be .neXus. AND FC. Like I said: : : "Also it is that sort, "It's my house, so fuck you attitude" that is : so common on the net that is ruining everything. That attitude is why : people like Andy have nothing to do with this bullshit. " : : Not speaking for Andy or anything, but its just a hunch... Well, yo're wrong. Perhaps we've been on the net long enough to realise that net.visionaries come and go, and so we all resist these crioes of 'follow me!' as vigorously as we can. I watched Neutopia destroy Aleph through *exactly* this sort of action. : We are doing this so that everyone can get involved with doing : something about change. We came to YOU with nothing but hard work in : mind. We are not trying to make FC our list.. we are not trying to use : the list as a front. We wanted a collaboration. Something along the : lines like: The Future Culture e-zine... organized by .neXus. , or : Future Culture page on our website... because our website is : developing much faster than anything your mail list could do alone. : Just something lame yet productive like that. WE DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF A MOVEMENT AS A MOVEMENT We may want to be part of a movement as *individuals* but just that. WE tend to get pissed off when people start speaking on behalf of the list. : > And you're more than welcome to become part of the community. : > You've already got a pretty clearcut voice, with opinions of : > your own. Get the lay of the land and then start changing it. : > But do it subtly and with just *a little* respect. After all, : > you're in someone else's garden and you gotta earn your : > stay. : : Will do. Yay! Dwayne. -------> hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 09:22:53 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 03:21:25 -0500 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Eric Cook Subject: Re: Last comments Comments: To: Future Culture Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, .gko. wrote: > A few people are still confused with some intentions of our offer. I also > beleive that the majority of the people on the list have not visted our > site, because there has been waaay too much mis-information floating around. > I'll try to clearify a few things. [Buncha stuff deleted] > Our affiliation with the list: > > Speaking for mostly myself, but also a few others, I try to avoid > mailing lists: they are archaic, slow, and are non-selective. I've > joined mailing lists in the past and have found them to be tedious. Perhaps you were on the wrong lists. > Anybody who has been around better forms of communication will tell > you the same. They have their benifits in that all you need is a > mailbox, but we've decided to move beyond that for those who would > like to cominicate on a higher level. We initially started off ourselves > doing mail transfer and filtered program control, but have out-grown > mail processing. Different types of communication have different formats. Each format is best suited to a particular type of communication. As far as the "better forms" comment, and mailing lists being "Archaic", I guess I'm not sure what it is that you want -- WWW? Yup, we've got web pages/sites, some of us. IRC? Yup, some of us do that. Some don't. Don't get caught in "shiny/sleek/new" == "better". > I think it's ironic that you have *given* us permission to start our > own community. I also find it ironic that you tell us not to use your > mailing list as a crutch! What!? We don't need a _mailing list_ to > support us. I think that's rather egotistical presumption since few > of you are the ones who started FC. No one gave you permission. It was suggested as a more appropriate method of going about your stated goals. > AND, last of all, I'm very depressed to find that a few people on FC > have fallen into the clique games. It's sickening and no better than the > "old conservative white men" that form country clubs. I have no problems > with grouping among peers...but when you have to pee on every byte > that passes through your realm, just so you can claim that something is > *yours*...that's just fuckin' sad. This was not the case. If that's how you'd like to view it, ah well... > > Maybe the whole proposition should have gone directly to Andy rather > than the list. We didn't realize that this would be received with the > amout of hostility that it has. I appoligize for talking so much... > But thank you for listening. Heh. Hehheheh... Yeah, go directly to Andy. He'd _love_ it. --------------------------- This thread's going to go on for days, isn't it? Especially now that I see Dwayne's joined the fray. (Hi Dwayne!) :) --Eric Cook ecook@mail.msen.com From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 09:26:19 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 19:24:55 +1100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Dwayne Subject: Re: .neXus. on FC Comments: To: FUTUREC%UAFSYSB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> In-Reply-To: <199412220709.SAA26866@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Adam Mertz" at Dec 22, 94 01:08:33 am I peeled a grape, and found that Adam Mertz had written upon it: : : Thats fine then... all FC is is a mail list with people on it sharing : thoughts. Nothing more nothing else. Yeah, right. We've already told you what has come out of this list. You've looked at marius' site, you looked over mine, you may or may not have looked at the FC member's homepages, and yet you say this? A TON of productive stuff flows from the members of this list. Sure, the 'Future Culture Anarchist Zen Net Revolutionary Jihad Autonomous Memetic Collective" hasn't been covering the White House in daffodils and getting the Dalaia Lama stoned, but big deal, the *members* of the list have been out doing things. : BTW, I can feel the looking down : the nose bit on the word, "cyberpunk." Replace 'bit' with 'lot' cyberpunks piss me off, every 'cyberpunk' I have ever met is just a computer nerd who has managed to convince himself that because he has a bigger hard drive than the next guy, he's "cooler" pfah. When on the whole he's still just a computer nerd. : Not exactly... We offered new ideas that entailed a movement... if FC : has nothing to do with this then fine. Do NOTHING. Me.. I feel that it : is important to be an activist of sorts. We thought people on the FC : would be the same sort of individuals... Hey... we were wrong! but Adam, we ARE activists, some of us. More so than you will ever be. We just don't share your world view, as precisely as you do. Welcome to beging a member of the human race. Frustrating, isn't it? :-) : If you know this than why do you resist? If you know new ideas should : be taken into respect, then why retaliate so intensely? We didn't resist your *ideas* we resisted your *clarion call to join a great new movement* get that through your skull. Your _ideas_ sound interesting, your _approach_ sucks. : Those who still feel the cyberpunk movement is alive (not the media : version mind you) then do something rather than e-mailing ideas... : lets get some infocracking shit done. Who's with me? >8| Adam,mfor the benefit of those who give a shit: what do you propose to do? What are you doing now? How can we help? Be specific, don't give us nebulous ideas about "essays" and "zines" and stuff, what *precisely* are you working on *right now* where you think other people could help out? Call for volunteers. : That's great to hear... but its all personal, only done for yourself. Who else should you do it for? : If you collectively worked with everyone else... then you could get a : lot more done. That is what is great about the net.... that is why we : chose neXus as a name... Funny, that. : But you dont get that do you... you can't understand that by way of : the net you could have very easily cooperated with us and started : something great. But like you said, "We dont want that." All you wanna : do is gab and do your own thing. No, we want to do *our* thing, not *your* thing, and if our thing coincides with your thing, then good. All you've done so far is try to tell us why joining with you would be good. I've yet to see any specifics, though. : Nothing bad about sitting around and talking... We do it all the time. : I'm saying that by-way-of-net you are unwilling to do anything with : anyone else outside of FC, unless it was a personal venture... which : is what its going to be for anyone else on the FC list who would : actually like to work with us. Jesus Adam: a case in point: The nexus-gaia mailing list currently has 107 subscribers. I'm not sure how many people are on the regional lists and NOT on n-g, but I'd say the total suibscriber base of the nexus lists would be close to 150. This entire memetic structure arose from discussions held on *this list* That's one example. There are others. What more do you want from us? Handstands? : When we are all doing our own thing we loose ourselves in the mess. Bollocks. : THE FC LIST WOULD NOT, IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM, LOOSE ITS IDENTITY BY : COOPERATING WITH US. : : So what's your fear and rejection for? Resistance to authority. Dwayne. -------> hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 11:46:42 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 11:43:29 GMT-0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Trond Buland Subject: glory days Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> strange but i get the feeling i've been here before? during the late 70s and early 80s a few of my friends were marxist- leninists, and i used to hang out with a bunch of people who were members of the AKP(ml) or some of the splinter groups of the norwegian ml-party.... they were quite few, nothing more than a cult really, but admirably active and outspoken. at the core of any action, strike or demonstration, you could count upon finding a few core marxist-leninists. (nice people, most of them, true idealists struggling for what they belived right... dangerous people, some of them....) strangebutigetthefeelingi'vebeenherebefore? they spoke a lot, these people, in addition to all the hard political work they did. in fact, most of them could talk you under the table in no time.... and they were VERY serious about what they were doing and talking about doing (as we all know, "the revolution is no tea- party")! in a way, the huge sense of importance was the core of this tiny movement; every memeber felt deep in his/her hearth that he/she was at the forefront of the revolution. they were the choosen few who had seen, and Understod the lesson of history, and therefore they should also be the ones to change history...... strangebutigetthefeelingi'vebeenherebefore? all the time they talked about "leadership" (i.e. the leadership of the party, of the leading cadres, over the (brave) but aimless "people"), "unity" (the necessity of uniting all revolutionary forces under the one umbrella of the Party, diversity was seen as bad for the struggle (yeah; "struggle" was one of those words..)), "change" and "impact" and "propaganda", "sense of destiny", of the "need to return to the original, true and pure form of ideology", the one coined by some long ago departed guru or ideological leader. the last argument in any discussion tended to go something like "Lenin (or Marx or Engels or Mao or Hoxha or whoever) would have agreed with Us on these questions, so therefore We Are Right!" strangebutigetthefeelingi'vebeenherebefore? anyone not agreeing 100% was branded as an "Enemy" (of the party and therefore of the people). Enemies were dangerous because they didn't see the one and only way to salvation (or even worse, they saw it but refused to follow), they were brainwashed sleepy inhabitants of the norwegian equivalent of "sleepy michigan villages", who didn't see the great chance they had of joining the Movement on the Glorious Road to the Future. and in fact, those disagreeing the least, those quite close to the Pure, True Ideology of the Party, were of course the most dangerous (and stupid) of all Enemies... well, i didn't buy that style of rhetoric then, and i guess i don't buy it now...... just to bad that good ideas and intentions sometimes are wrapped in rotten rhetorics...... strangebutigetthefeelingi'vebeenherebefore? and now for something completely different: lets go on building these virtual communities based on diversity, and let "the movement" grow out of the communities (not the other way around). then m a y b e we'll even see a "movement" with some sort of impact and even a chance of survival. (unlike the late, missed "cyberpunk-movement") peace, eh? have a nice day :-) tb strange, but i get the feeling i've been here before? <-------------------------------------------------> < Trond Buland > < e-mail: trond.buland@ifim.sintef.no > < phone:+47 73 59 25 65 home:+47 73 52 78 21 > <-------------------------------------------------> From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 12:13:56 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 19:19:09 +0800 Reply-To: brad@goku.huge.net.hk Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Brad Collins Subject: Re: have some disrespect, dammit Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Well said -- It's easy to fall into the "been there, done that" mindset, I certainly have on and off and I try to shake myself out of it from time to time and we need movement, not Movements -- which are almost always after the fact, after the originators have lost interest or lost control -- that's when the shooting starts... WHAT I MEAN BY MOVEMENT: "I Knew Men For Whom Everything Matters" -- Charles Olson This has been one of the most fucked up months of my life. I turned 33 this month on the day that my Uncle Porter Collins died on the other side of the planet in Conneticut. Porter was a very gentle and remarkable man, being the family and town historian as well maintaining long lasting friendships that spanned the globe. I spent many weekends when I was a child routing through 200 year old graveyards to track down some New England farmer's life, reading through diaries and letters from Whaling Captains from Nantucket or Sag Harbor and scanning through countless town records and histories. Last year I sent him a grey brick from a 200 year old Chinese walled village that is across the valley from where I live. The brick became part of a wall that he had been building for thirty years, made up of cobblestone from Boston, sandstone and bits of rubble from ancient Egypt, Rome and Jeruselum. Hearing him talk about each of the stones in the wall was always a remarkable experience -- never quite the same story twice. Porter was a living embodiment of what Ez Pound and Olson were talking about when they said that all history is contemporary -- a simultaneous living present China calls its takeover of Hong Kong a "Reunification" Early this month I had a big meeting with the head of the China Sports Institute -- the Chinese government agency set up 40 years ago to get the Olympics in China -- they have a number of magazines (basically poorly done propaganda) about Sports in China, which are loosing money. They want to boost circulation and keep their jobs. These guys were typical mainland businessmen/officials, with cheap suits that made them look like they belonged in the French Connection and stone faces. They had just come from the World Karaoke Championships (very serious shit out here) and I was sitting in a coffee shop in a hotel trying to explain what the internet is to these guys and then how WWW works and how they could put their magazine out on the net and reach more people for less money than they could on paper. One of these guys father had been on the Long March with Mao -- they were'nt technophobes, just completely outside of the technological loop. An electronic typewriter is still an exotic piece of equitment in many corners of China and here they were trying their best to understand something that might as well be from another planet. I really respect that. "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got till it's gone" -- Joni Mitchell And we plow on through -- through the holidays -- the Solstice, through Christmas through New Year and the Lunar New Year shortly after -- through dreams and hopes faded or forgotten through a lack of time until they are outdated -- through a maelstrom of paltry emergancies and the corresponding hacked patches that'll get you through the day -- through and past the frozen moments amid the bustle that something triggers comprehension and the corresponding frustration to articulate anything so clear and pure -- and through it all I keep thinking of that silly line from some Doors song which goes something like, "the trip, this is the best part of the trip" And ain't it true -- it's the fucking process that keeps you going, it's the struggle and grasp and not any particular achievement. "They say the cows laid out Boston...." -- Emerson We are the cows, wandering at will, beating paths that are already becoming well worn, laying out the internet, laying down the paths and the memes and leaving them behind when we're finished with them like little leafs of paper beneath Emily Dickenson's window. It'll all be forgotten, consumed and dissolved into the vast tidal movements of information crashing at the edges of our terminals, forgotten but still forming the humus giving life to those who come after. "The Pilgram Saddle on the Puritan Horse" -- William Bradford (Governer of Plymouth Colony) John Winthrop landed in what was to become Boston with scores of ships, instantly dwarfing the tiny Pilgram colony to the south (dis is from memory folks). Half of the pilgrams (including my family) had already sodded off to the Conneticut Valley but they had no real chance, the unbelieving pulpit pounders had arrived and arrived in big numbers -- But strangely, the Massachusettes Bay Colony could never quite shake the influence of the tiny Pilgram colony. Is that what's happening to the net? Is this what's worrying us about neXus? Are we worried that maybe neXus is just one more instance of the invasion of newbies and creatures from the suburban ghettos on AOL swamping the net? I don't think this is the case with neXus but part of me is worried that they won't do anything more than following a little breadcrumb trail with the intention of collecting the crumbs and glueing them back together instead of widening and paving the cow paths. With luck, neXus'll be saying the same thing that we're saying now a few years down the line when another group comes along asking to rewrite the neXus FAQ.... long after many of us are humus. "Struggle to sketch the flow that already exists intact in mind" -- Jack Keroauc b/ --- Brad Collins brad@huge.net.hk Hong Kong Today is the Winter Solstice, Dong Tze (Coming of Winter). Most folks have been allowed to go home early so that everyone can eat at home with their families to eat a big meal. Vegitable hawkers have raised their prices 20%, the sound of chopping echoed through my village all day, displacing temporarily the endless crashing of mahjong tiles being mixed in any one of a dozen shacks at any one time. From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 14:11:48 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 13:34:33 GMT-0100 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Trond Buland Subject: Re: Last comments Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> > > ** A lot of respect goes to Andy and any of the originals with FC FAQ, > ** a lot of work and a lot of time, we know - we've done it. It's real > ** easy to get worn out over that shit. We have offered to pick up where > ** he had left off and try to keep it current until we wear out. It is > ** a VERY good piece of cultural literature...we don't want it to be swept > ** under the rug. We'd like to see it continued. > > I think it's ironic that you have *given* us permission to start our > own community. I also find it ironic that you tell us not to use your no permission given. no permission needed. go on and build whatever you want. welcome! > mailing list as a crutch! What!? We don't need a _mailing list_ to > support us. I think that's rather egotistical presumption since few > of you are the ones who started FC. > > AND, last of all, I'm very depressed to find that a few people on FC > have fallen into the clique games. It's sickening and no better than the > "old conservative white men" that form country clubs. I have no problems > with grouping among peers...but when you have to pee on every byte > that passes through your realm, just so you can claim that something is > *yours*...that's just fuckin' sad. Fixer made a good point that some > of you will miss due to your ego. come on.... this is just hostile bullshit from you, you know! :-) you'll never convince anyone by swearing at them, by telling them just how fuckin stupid they are, you know > > Maybe the whole proposition should have gone directly to Andy rather > than the list. We didn't realize that this would be received with the andy has nothing to do with this list, you know. he may be a lurker, but i don't really think so. andy's been gone for years... andy tried to k i l l the Future Culture he created. (it just wouldn't die, so it changed instead....) > amout of hostility that it has. I appoligize for talking so much... if you'd lived here for some time you would know that the responses to your proposal wasn't very "hostile". not at all! :-) > But thank you for listening. > i f you/we are to change Future Culture into a tool, or a movement for creating the f u t u r e, if change and revitalization is your/our aim, why is it that you end up talkin about the p a s t all the time? - you/we are to recreate the true, unspoiled cyberpunk that existed b e f o r e the dirty media laid it's filthy hands on it. - you/we should listen to the voice of Andy (who doesn't live here anymore, you know. we miss him...) 'cause then we'll all see that we're on the wrong road? why worship the past, and the leaders of the past? why keep dreaming of the lost golden age? why keep dreaming of the utopia of the future, the utopia only y o u can create? and why this contempt for the same people you recently proposed marriage to? (we are just conservative old men, mailing lists are just old crap and so on and so on....) maybe if you had gotten to know the bride a little better before proposing, you would have seen that she wasn't the person you thought, that she had changed over the years, even if she still keeps a few pictures of her younger self in the closet. and yeah, we all know that the picture in the passport really needs changing... hope you'll stay with us, and participate to (even change if that's the way it goes) this community (not "our" community), and at the same time build y o u r house if that's what you want...... and yeah, i'll keep listening to you in the future peace? have a nice day :-) tb <-------------------------------------------------> < Trond Buland > < e-mail: trond.buland@ifim.sintef.no > < phone:+47 73 59 25 65 home:+47 73 52 78 21 > <-------------------------------------------------> From owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 22 14:13:16 1994 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 06:57:36 -0600 Reply-To: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Sender: Future Culture <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> From: Adam Mertz Subject: one more time Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <@lilje.uib.no:FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.bitnet> Future Culture, Here is the original document... with additional comments marked by a preceeding "dash" and ending with a *: Marius Watz, Let me start off first by explaining that I am writing on behalf of the .neXus. group based here in KSU. We are not affiliated with the NEXUS project, we are an independent group who just happened to choose the same name. -- Nothing too belligerent about that. * For about a year and a half now, we have been working on a web site that would offer information pertaining to topics of interest to the cyberpunk community. We have, by far, come a long way since then. We have established a mild presence on the WWW, and we have gained an audience at a respectable level. We attribute a lot of our initial knowledge to the original FC FAQ that was maintained long ago by Andy. Although, not a part of the list, we feel close to the Future Culture FAQ and its ideas. As self declared cyberpunks, we would like to see the continuation of such free information, and we would like to have something to do with the future of Future Culture. -- Something to do with the future of Future Culture... hmmm all you know right now is that we feel close to the FAQ, and that we would like to see the continuation of it... being that the list hasnt been updated since 1993 of March (even mislabels the address of the mailing list), we thought this was apparent that the FAQ was discontinued. Come to find out, the FAQ is a relic of and "old" FC, one that does not exist anymore. This is the result of Andy's trashing of the list, of which some you survived and moved on. This survival has made FC a pride and joy of those who continued it. Mention of the old FAQ in relation to the mail list is like bringing up bad memories. * Unsure of whom to go to for the presentation of our ideas, we decided to go with the web keeper of the FAQ, and the first of the FC to contact us. -- Again, we were mailed first. Do not forget this. A member of the FC mailed us awhile asking about collaboration, Ideas, we thought on it. We had a few to share. * We are offering the following: 1. New maintenance of the entire Future Culture FAQ, including an htmlized version and an ASCII version. We have 4-5 people consistently working on finding info, organizing it, then htmlizing it into a final product. -- Once more, all we want to do is re maintain the FAQ, which details online information. Nothing involves a movement. Just information, the most valuable resource we believe in. Where is the insult? Where is the belligerence guys? Tell me. All we are asking is to help out with the FAQ.* Right now our information has taken form into several sub-sections of neXus, this includes DigiHead (Net, Computer, Hacking, Phreaking, and technology section), Harmonic Resonance (Music), and VoxBox (social CP related commentary). We would encompass the FC FAQ thus so into our information to be maintained. What would probably happen is a merging of both our information layout and identities. Future Culture--neXus, would be a hardcore Cyberpunk hang out and a resourceful information center to reboot the cyberpunk movement into something meaningful. We do not intend to take this lightly, we will hit the net hard with the double presence. If you wanna get a taste of our philosophy, you can check out the digital thinking text located on our site... http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~psiber/nexus.html the doc is located under ~psiber/main/CP.neXus.html -- right here I think is what the mis-interpretation resulted from: "hardcore cyberpunk hangout." WHOAH! We arent into that shit... says everyone. Fine, if the word cyberpunk offends you, I take that back. We wanted the WWW to be the merging of our shared information. The information and cause is only spurred by "digital thinking" as we like to call it. If you have a lot of spirit placed into the net and into technology than the FC and neXus are not too far off base. From all of this discussion, I think I might go over our site with the other guys and discuss dropping any sort of connection to the word cyberpunk. I feel like that best describes who I am, but it no longer means anything. Just as the description under digital thinking doc says. And I ask, how many of you would at this point in the proposal want to find out what we are about? * Commentary by subscribers to FC can (under authorization by the subscriber ) be posted to the neXus center as