Article: 9976 of fa.future-culture Path: ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Erich Schneider Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: silence Date: 13 Jul 1994 19:39:11 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3018rv$2ja@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: <<@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU:owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>> Original-Message-Id: <199407131738.2648.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 12:23:16 CDT Comments: To: futurec@uafsysb.uark.edu To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC Why is the list so silent, one asks? The future used to be beautiful, but then AT&T turned it into a TV commercial. The future used to be beautiful, but then the government turned it into a public works program. The future, if you will, was this pristine stretch of the Atacama desert in Chile which, while forbidden, had certain hidden attractions. But then, in the early Nyx days, it was turned into a large open-pit copper mine, exploited to bring fun and excitement at the time. Now we sift through the slightly toxic tailings of clothes 'n' music threads, petty flaming, and "joke" suicide posts. One can only talk about how k00l the net is so many times. One can only beat Clipper to death so many times. One can only discuss libertarianism vs. socialism so many times. One can only use the word "virtual community" so many times. I personally think we've (or I least I've) just run out of things to say. It's time we let the list die with dignity and stopped being burdened by the name, past, and personality cults of "FutureCulture". -Erich Schneider erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu Article: 9977 of fa.future-culture Path: ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: "Gregory H. Ritter" Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: silence Date: 13 Jul 1994 19:46:16 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 30 Message-ID: <301998$2tu@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: <<@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU:owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>> Original-Message-Id: <199407131745.2959.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 13:45:20 EDT Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: ; from "Erich Schneider" at Jul 13, 94 12:23 pm No, I don't think FC has run out of things to say at all. Chris Green was right: a large number of FC people have migrated over to the CYBERMIND list where there are thriving discussions on virtual ontology, net.identity, community, etc. (Sound familiar-- most of this was already hashed on FC in the past six months. However, many of the folks on CYBERMIND are much, much more philosophty-oriented, so the discussion has a different kind of bent to it.) Among the regular (and prolific) FCers on CYBERMIND are Michael Current, Alan Sondheim, Arthur Chandler, Marius Watz, Knut Mork (sp?), Shawn Wilbut (aka Bookish), and various others. CYBERMIND is a brand new list and the roster is changing quickly. Give it time to settle down and burn out on some 'hot topics' and I predict people will start to pop back into FC to see what's going on. In the meantime, I'm happy to see some lurkers coming out of the shadows. HEY ALL YOU LURKERS--COME ON OUT! The big, noisy boys have left the playground; you can run the place now. -- WPCn *********************************************************** * Greg Ritter |"The First Amendment supports my * * Dept. of English |right to plasticize history." * * Va. Commonwealth U. | * * Richmond, VA 23220 | from Disney CEO Michael Eisner, * * eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu | regarding the construction of * *---------------------- | DISNEY'S AMERICA, a "history * *They call me FICTIONBOY| theme park" to be built in Va. * *********************************************************** Article: 9981 of fa.future-culture Path: ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Knut Mork Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: silence Date: 13 Jul 1994 20:51:56 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 47 Message-ID: <301d4c$542@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: <<@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU:owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>> Original-Message-Id: <199407131851.5235.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 20:49:43 +0200 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: "Gregory H. Ritter"'s message of Wed, 13 Jul 1994 13:45:20 EDT <"mons.uio.n.731:13.06.94.17.47.43"@mons.uio.no> Gregory Ritter writes (about FCers on Cybermind): > Knut Mork (sp?) [...] What makes you think it's spelled wrong? :) If you must, my Web pages do explain how it's pronounced. But more importantly, Eric Schneider: > One can only talk about how k00l the net is so many times. > One can only beat Clipper to death so many times. > One can only discuss libertarianism vs. socialism so many times. > One can only use the word "virtual community" so many times. Hear, hear! Thank you, Eric, for saying what I've been thinking a long time, not only about FutureCulture but about many other net.phenomena, including more pop things like WiReD. WiReD is going down the tubes, partially because it lost its initial 'breaking wave' interest, but also because it's goal is.. limited. And they're running out of steam. I was, since we're talking about Cybermind, disappointed to see 'virtual community' show up there *again*. Yes, most people there do indeed have a more philosophical bent, but it's the same concept, and the same discussion, and after so many e-mail messages about it all it finally bores me to tears. > I personally think we've (or I least I've) just run out of things to > say. It's time we let the list die with dignity and stopped being > burdened by the name, past, and personality cults of "FutureCulture". I think what we're witnessing here is that the philosophy of the net can only move about as fast as the net itself does. And though the net is -moving- awful fast, it's not developing terribly much on the philosophical level. Excepting the deep, detailed discussions you get on someplace like Cybermind, we've caught up with the net, and it really is time to just start -living- here. Well, that's what I'm going to do anyway :) I don't think FutureCulture should die, though I do think it should shed some of its past. There's a lot of dwelling on the 'early years' going around -- I understand why, and I've talked with Marius about it quite a bit, but I still don't -like- it. Discussions about specifics -- like neural nets and fuzzy logic (yes yes! Keep that thread going!) -- will keep popping up, and I will stick around for it to be sure, but the more 'meta' threads deserve to be buried. For now. Or am I just feeling cynical this evening? --Knut Knut Mork http://www.uio.no/~kmork/ Article: 9983 of fa.future-culture Path: ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Tortoise Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: silence Date: 13 Jul 1994 21:37:38 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 80 Message-ID: <301fq2$6f0@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: <<@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU:owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>> Original-Message-Id: <199407131937.6617.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 15:25:37 -0400 Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Knut Mork wrote: > > One can only talk about how k00l the net is so many times. > > One can only beat Clipper to death so many times. > > One can only discuss libertarianism vs. socialism so many times. > > One can only use the word "virtual community" so many times. > > Hear, hear! Thank you, Eric, for saying what I've been thinking a long > time, not only about FutureCulture but about many other net.phenomena, > including more pop things like WiReD. WiReD is going down the tubes, > partially because it lost its initial 'breaking wave' interest, but also > because it's goal is.. limited. And they're running out of steam. > I havent been online half as long as a lot of the FC regulars, and most net people in general. I thinkI have had net acces, purloined and otherwise for roughly nine or ten months. The tech is no problem to pick up as I have a knack for that, but I was surprised that the "emotion" came just as easy. Maybe emotion is a bad word for it, perhaps I mean the FEEL. I read alt.cyberpunk, the same thread pop up often, the same things ar said. I am actinve ona few BBSs and the forums rotate thru the same topics, again and again, the ame things are siad, and little or no new ground or ideas are turned up. The mailing lists are the same even, i am on Cybermind as well and delete most of the messages because it seems to be the same thing over and over, THO I must say ther have been some sparkling ideas popping up there I havent heard before. Mostly I think it's like the kid when he gets a new toy, he wears it out plkaying with it constantly, and then it gets commonplace. We have to now move onto finding new things, and breaking the old habits we have developed. I know I have developed online habits myself... > I was, since we're talking about Cybermind, disappointed to see 'virtual > community' show up there *again*. Yes, most people there do indeed have > a more philosophical bent, but it's the same concept, and the same discussion, > and after so many e-mail messages about it all it finally bores me to tears. > I am involved in the Nexus project too, and the virtual community thread is the focus there of sorts. There I feel there is some headway since it is the idea of mixing VL and RL, but the discussions on other places is the same stuff regurgitated. I'm sorry if I put-down the participants in those threads, it's not intentional, it's just that it doenst hold that same interest it used to. > > I think what we're witnessing here is that the philosophy of the net can only > move about as fast as the net itself does. And though the net is -moving- > awful fast, it's not developing terribly much on the philosophical level. > Excepting the deep, detailed discussions you get on someplace like Cybermind, > we've caught up with the net, and it really is time to just start -living- > here. > Agreed. We need to get over that bit of excitment and crazy dum action that accompanies moving into the new house. You know were you run up and down the stairs, jump on the beds etc... hehe Whic is one reason I refuse to use smilees anymore. > Well, that's what I'm going to do anyway :) I don't think FutureCulture > should die, though I do think it should shed some of its past. There's a lot > of dwelling on the 'early years' going around -- I understand why, and I've > talked with Marius about it quite a bit, but I still don't -like- it. > Discussions about specifics -- like neural nets and fuzzy logic (yes yes! > Keep that thread going!) -- will keep popping up, and I will stick around > for it to be sure, but the more 'meta' threads deserve to be buried. For now. > YEAH, new things nd ideas, more specific topics, like the ones you stated above would really bring about new things. Making it a brainstorm instead of a drizzle. tortoise(who wishes pine defaulted to anything but PICO) tortoise@cyberspace.org |autonomous zones of free meme movement and creation |mixed with the emergence of hyperkind cultures that ** KILL YOUR HEROS ** |redefine our reality with technology and anarchy. | CHAOTIC FREEDOM Article: 9989 of fa.future-culture Path: ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Evan Kirchhoff Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: silence Date: 14 Jul 1994 03:54:54 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3025te$grm@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: <<@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU:owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>> Original-Message-Id: <199407140154.17258.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 20:53:44 CDT Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <9407131852.AA19323@canopus.CC.UManitoba.CA>; from "Knut Mork" at Jul 13, 94 8:49 pm Knut Mork says: > Hear, hear! Thank you, Eric, for saying what I've been thinking a long > time, not only about FutureCulture but about many other net.phenomena, > including more pop things like WiReD. WiReD is going down the tubes, > partially because it lost its initial 'breaking wave' interest, but also > because it's goal is.. limited. And they're running out of steam. I don't understand this stuff about "steam". Wired as a magazine concept is as going-down-the-tubes-proof as Entertainment Weekly. IMO it's a pop-culture magazine that concentrates on the computerish parts of the pop culture; this culture is stable, the readership is large, and the magazine can live on this material indefinitely since new computerish pop-culture is being cranked out at a furious and ever-increasing rate. Now _Mondo_ is going down the tubes--or, you could argue, it's simply turning into a mixture of Wired and Details, which is a fine magazine concept in itself, but doesn't have the Big Weirdness that Mondo used to have. Actually, what disturbs me more than any of this, as a pop-culture magazine addict, is how all the magazines I ever buy are merging into the same magazine. I've now read _four_ nearly-identical articles on the Internet Underground Music Archive (the last two in Details and Rolling Stone within a month of each other; the same issues that also carried similar stories on the federal program to bust Deadheads for trivial drug offences) and this Internet bleedover is making it increasingly difficult to tell the difference between Wired, Mondo, Details, Spin and Rolling Stone, except for the base font. And I'm afraid to even look at the New Yorker... (Another random media annoyance: I can just tell that this OJ thing is going to replace the Gulf War as everyone's pet example in tiresome media-studies articles right through the end of the millenium; I'd just like to formally register my exhaustion in advance, thanks.) -- Evan Kirchhoff, kirchh@cc.umanitoba.ca Article: 9990 of fa.future-culture Path: ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Andy Hawks Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: silence Date: 14 Jul 1994 05:37:20 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 102 Message-ID: <302btg$i4v@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: <<@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU:owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>> Original-Message-Id: <199407140335.18579.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 21:35:01 -0600 Comments: To: Future Culture To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: <199407131726.LAA26860@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Erich Schneider wrote: > One can only talk about how k00l the net is so many times. > One can only beat Clipper to death so many times. > One can only discuss libertarianism vs. socialism so many times. > One can only use the word "virtual community" so many times. One can only talk about tomorrow before it arrives, and the beauty is that it's *never* at our doorstep and always just around the corner... > I personally think we've (or I least I've) just run out of things to > say. It's time we let the list die with dignity and stopped being > burdened by the name, past, and personality cults of "FutureCulture". hey erich, join the tribe. ;) seriously, like, dude, i can really dig where yer comin from man....i *gnow* that place, man...;) in the last couple years i've felt that way tons of times, probably before a lot of people did -- i tend to get bored with things and move on faster than most people, which i think is both bad and good....it's ddefinitely affected how people on the net think of me both negatively and positively.... and the thing is, i think it's really difficult to fulffill what some people regard as almost an *obligation* for you to *remain* and keep talking about stuph that you've gone over and over in your head more than 99.99% of the population and at the same time move on and try and find new places to explore, new interests, new ideas, new topics.... in the end, the net is just bullshit and temporary....everyone just talks to themselvesto trying to meet their own needs (intellectual, emotional, psychological) faster and better than they think they can do in real life.... if sdomeone were to ask me today "what have you gotten out of the net?" today, i would probably answer "an appreciation for the relationship between people and information, a deeper understanding of why people interact with the people they interact with, shitloads of free software, and megabytes of nudie pics"...i wouldn't answer anything about net.relationships, community, learning, knowledge or anything like that..... i'm gonna go out on a wicked limb and say that in the past some people might've regarded me and people like me as a sort of Timothy Leary for the net, and nowe that I'm older and wiser I hate that.... I hate the idea that the net is a great place to meet new and interesting people -- it's better to meet your neighbors or the couple that moved in down the street,..we should get back to that....I hate the idea that the relationships on the net that exist solely on the net are as viable as real relationships, that the discussion is just as meaningful as real life discussion, etcv....that's bullshit....until we have VR that is inseperable from RL, that's bullshit....it ultrimately lacks things you can only get from rl..... I hate the idea that the information superhighway is supposed to make our world a better place when all it is going to do is make it a little bit different.... I hate the *fact* that people use it to escape, and it's filled with a lot of people who would be better off working out their neuroses and social problems in the real world, rather than MUDding or IRCing or becoming a regular on newsgroups or e-lists..... there is something, almost sacred in every soul, that can only be felt by a gentle human touch. that's what the net lacks, and that's why real life is more deserving of your attention. try this test -- touch your index finger to your monitor, wait a couple seconds, and touch the same finger to your lips...*feel* the difference.... i won't deny that i probably sound like a hypocrite (sp) here, but, for someone who has probably been on more extremes than most as far as net.life v. real-life is concerned, i dunno.... i'm babbling now, but, what it comes down to is that we're all searching for more personal and worldly happiness, more peace and serenity (hopefully), and in the end you only get that in real life. the net doesn't do shit for you but help you waste time, the same as drugs and alcohol anbd neurotic relationships and other shit like that.... when you're trippin on it (the net) you may think you're closer to heaven or in a better place, but it's just that temporary high in a place you can't (and shouldn't want to) live..... don't fuck the net, screw it...;) anyway erich, you're a really cool guy, and so I hope you find whatever you're looking for...my advice to you would be to take a break from futureculture and check out other circles of the net that maybe ring closer to home in terms of your daily life, places that are more easy going....i dunno if you still watch the real world on mtv, but, try alt.tv.real-world...it's certainly not intellectually stimulating (which i think is a good thing for the net these days), and it's very very very predictable (falems about pedro being gay with aids, "rachel is a total fox!", etc.) but, i dunno..... even better advice is to leave the net altogether aside from talking with people you talk to in real life.... Andy Hawks Information Systems, Business Administration Major University of Colorado at Boulder Article: 9991 of fa.future-culture Path: ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Knut Mork Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: silence Date: 14 Jul 1994 09:49:59 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 30 Message-ID: <302qn7$mea@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: <<@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU:owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>> Original-Message-Id: <199407140749.22974.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 09:49:18 +0200 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: Evan Kirchhoff's message of Wed, 13 Jul 1994 20:53:44 CDT <"pat.uio.no.213:14.06.94.01.55.39"@pat.uio.no> Hmmm. Someone named Evan Kirchhoff says: > I don't understand this stuff about "steam". Wired as a magazine concept > is as going-down-the-tubes-proof as Entertainment Weekly. As a magazine concept it's doing just great. As a magazine.. it's suffering under the same crisis that Andy goes on about in a later post. > [stuff about magazines merging] That's part of it all, for me. The net is, perhaps, losing its charm. I like the comparison with a brand new toy; all the parts look diverse and shiny and new.. until they aren't new anymore, and you reliaze they're all variations on the same concepts. WiReD is repeating itself, even though the patina changes. Here we sit debating a virtuality that isn't even real yet, while old heroes are dying. (Hey, wow. Am I tapping into GenX energies here? ;)) What we need is a -real life- fix. And I'm glimpsing one just around the corner, but that's a different story. And Andy: thank you for another great post. A touch extreme, but it pushed all the right buttons. Anyhow, that's enough self-repeating for this thread. --Knut Knut Mork http://www.uio.no/~kmork/ Article: 10534 of fa.future-culture Path: ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist From: Knut Mork Newsgroups: fa.future-culture Subject: Re: Net Nihilism Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:50:00 +0200 Organization: Internet mailing list Lines: 23 Message-ID: <323dt8$c8k@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: Future Culture NNTP-Posting-Host: ifi.uio.no Return-Path: <<@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU:owner-futurec@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>> Original-Message-Id: <199408071949.12561.ifi@ifi.uio.no> Original-Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 21:49:25 +0200 Comments: To: FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC In-Reply-To: "Robert W. Jones"'s message of Sun, 7 Aug 1994 08:23:25 -0700 <"pat.uio.no.937:07.07.94.15.23.20"@pat.uio.no> > Gawd, this is worse than listenining or reading about the abortion debate or > gun debate...where no body is wrong...and the truth is absolute. people > please move on. Actually, I find this debate quite interesting, not for its content, but for its -dynamics-. It seems to be filling a hole in FC where, suddenly, the traditionally highly active FCers find themselves with very little to say. The hole is being filled by a group of relatively new members to the list who haven't been introduced or re-introduced to its history (or, at least, don't appear to have been). FC's original 'spirit' has been, as Marius has noted repeatedly, propelled through retelling itself. The retelling has suddenly come to a halt, and this is what's filling the void. Is FC recreating itself? Not yet. But the movement towards such a re- creation seems to be going on, and is, in itself, interesting. I will continue lurking, just to see what happens to FC -now-. --Knut Knut Mork http://www.uio.no/~kmork/